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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2007-09-06 MinutesCity Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 1 of 19 Member Aldermen Mayor Dan Coody Ward 1 Position l — Brenda Thiel V10 Ward 2 Position 2 — Nancy Allen CityAttorney Kit Williams � 1 Ward 3 Position 2—Robert Ferrell Ward 4 Position 2 — Lioneld Jordan City Clerk Sondra Smith ARKANSAS City of Fayetteville Arkansas City Council Street Committee Meeting Minutes September 6, 2007 A meeting of the Fayetteville City Council Street Committee was held on September 6, 2007 at 4:30 p.m. in Room 326 of the City Administration Building located at 113 West Mountain Street, Fayetteville, Arkansas. MEMBERS PRESENT: Alderman Lioneld Jordan, Chair; Alderwoman Nancy Allen, Alderman Robert Ferrell, Alderwoman Brenda Thiel Other Council Members Present: Alderwoman Shirley Lucas Staff Present: Ron Petrie, Chris Brown, Tim Conklin, Gary Dumas, Terry Gulley 1. Call to Order Chairman Lioneld Jordan called the meeting to order. 2. Approval of the minutes from the August 20, 2007 Street Committee meeting Alderman Ferrell moved to approve the minutes of the August 20, 2007 Street Committee meeting. Alderwoman Allen seconded the motion and itpassed unanimously. 3. Discussion of the Master Street Plan (Howard Nickel Road neighborhood request to address the Street Committee) Alderman Jordan said to keep in mind that we have passed the Master Street Plan. This discussion is to see if the Street Committee wishes to make any alterations to that plan. Ron Petrie handed out a summary of what is happening in this particular subdivision and also on Rupple Road. He said there have been a lot of statements made and he wanted to present the facts to the Street Committee. He reviewed some of the information. He said the preliminary plat review of this subdivision was in June 2003 and the developer of the subdivision requested 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 2 of 19 we change our Master Street Plan to the configuration as shown on a slide now being presented by Mr. Petrie. He said previously Rupple Road was a minor arterial at this site and a principal arterial at Howard Nickel. The developer made the request that it be changed to a minor arterial all the way through the subdivision. He said as far as staff knows, Rupple Road was added as a minor arterial around 1992 to 1994. The Planning Commission reviewed the request made by the developer and the City Council approved the amendment to the Master Street Plan in August 2003. He noted that the preliminary plat required a maximum of eight curb cuts. This was later changed to nine curb cuts. At the time staff recommended only five curb cuts on this subdivision. He said in 2005 the City Council approved the change from a minor arterial to a principal arterial for Rupple Road all the way from Hwy 62 to the subdivision. Alderman Jordan said this overall plan was presented to the public through the Bond issue. Ron Petrie said it was presented many times. He said in 2005 the road was changed from a minor arterial to a principal arterial. He said a minor arterial is a four lane street, which is what existed through this route on the master street plan. We changed it to a four lane road with a boulevard. He said some of the Committee will probably remember why this change was made. We were at the time discussing Rupple Road in front of the new Owl Creek School and the Boys & Girls Club. He said we were looking at a cost share to widen that intersection at that time. We knew there were a lot of issues regarding pedestrian crossings at the intersection and we wanted to have some type of refuge in that area so we changed it to a boulevard. In December 2004 we began discussion on our transportation bond program. We had concepts shown and discussed from December 2004 through the time of the vote on Sept. 12, 2006. He said for a little over a year and a half these concepts were in the Council packets. We decided not to go this far with the bond program. He pointed out Mount Comfort and Clabber Creek on the map displayed and said we paid with a cost share to have a bridge across Clabber Creek. He said the drawings being shown today were in the packets and were discussed at the Street Committee for a little over a year. He said under the long range improvement plans (10 to 20 years) of a BWR plan done in 2004 it shows this as a principal arterial but their recommendation was that we only build two lanes within a principal arterial right-of-way. Alderman Jordan said in other words the 90 ft. was there all along. Ron Petrie said 90-11. (right-of-way) was dedicated with the subdivision. But we would like to have the ability to change it to four lanes at a future time. He showed a map of recent developments (within the last 2 to 3 years) that have been approved, are under some phase of construction or which have been recently completed in this area. He said there are a considerable number of developments, residential units and various uses throughout this area west of the interstate. Alderwoman Allen asked if it would be possible to get copies of the map being displayed. Tim Conklin said he can get copies but not this evening. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 3 of 19 Alderman Jordan asked Tim Conklin, with proposed development in this area if we are looking at somewhere between 3500 to 4000 units. Tim Conklin said he thinks that is a correct estimate. Ron Petrie said he has a copy of the Master Street Plan so if there are any questions, we can refer back to that. He showed another aerial which was a blowup of the area where the critical points are in his estimation. He pointed out the arterial and the subdivision under discussion. He pointed out the bridge across Clabber Creek and the bridge crossing under I540 where Van Asche currently goes. He said if we want to continue to have the loop on the west side of town to connect to Hwy 62, it is critical to connect it at some point. He said there are various existing residential units throughout this basin. He said a lot has happened in this area in the last ten years which limits the possibilities and routes for this connection. Alderman Ferrell asked if we have an idea how many households are along the 2nd route — along Salem. Ron Petrie said he can count them again. He did it once and he thinks it is around twenty. Alderwoman Thiel said the thing that bothers her about considering that option is it doesn't give you a straight shot on through. She said at some point we need to start getting some straight connections - something where you don't have to deal with a lot of turns and a lot of stop lights and intersections. Alderwoman Allen said the more developed it gets the harder it is to do that. Alderwoman Thiel agreed that when you look at the old part of town, it is impossible to do that. But if you bend on something like this that is not totally developed out.... Alderman Ferrell said there is pretty good traffic flow there now. But with what is coming we're going to have to have something that will handle all the traffic. Alderman Jordan opened the floor for public comment. Bob Costrell said the City provided him with the BWR report which does propose two lanes within the principal arterial right-of-way. That is reiterated both on the map and on Table ES -3 of the long range projects. With the question of the consideration of the alternatives he said there are a couple that come to mind. From his point of view and the point of view of the neighborhood there are some advantages to Tracy Hoskins' proposal. He said that would provide a section where the houses would back on to the major artery and would be more consistent with the City's principles for development. You do run into the same issue as you go east and have the old neighborhoods that open onto the street. He said he would appreciate any further analysis 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 4 of 19 the Committee and staff could provide on that alternative as well as the alternative of simply considering the idea of parallel paths up to the north. He understands from what the Planning Dept. has stated to the press that this is the preferred approach. With regard to the question of the process that the developer of his neighborhood went through in 2003 and 2004, he said the advice of the staff was that the street be limited to five curb cuts because of the obvious problems. That limit was raised to eight and then to nine. He said he wasn't sure how it got up to fifteen or sixteen curb cuts but mentioned some of his guesses. He said with all these curb cuts, it is pretty dense in terms of access to the road, much more than you would see along Salem Road or along Deane Solomon Road. He said he thinks there is an issue of balls being dropped somewhere between the City and the County resulting in a development being created that is not well tailored to the original plan of having a four -lane highway through there. He said there is a kind of implicit back and forth going on with the City's position that the home owners should have known there would be this big road going through. He said in his case he did know there was a proposal out there and in his discussions with the City it was conveyed to him that this plan was distant, uncertain and that he (and neighbors) would have the ability to provide input on it. Alderman Jordan asked if, when Mr. Costrell bought his property there was any indication on the deed or on something that there was a possibility this road would go in. Bob Costrell said it said there was a 90 ft. right-of-way. He said he has no dispute with that. He said however that it was expressed to him that this was distant and uncertain and was not set in stone. Now that the issue is here they are trying to address it. He said that though they (the neighbors) probably should have known, the City also should have known when it created this neighborhood that really didn't fit with the plan that was in place for a major artery there. He said he would like to request that, given these problems, the City undertake some research to see if there are some other solutions that might be available. Alderman Ferrell asked how Mr. Costrell thinks the two lanes would handle the traffic that will be coming with the growth in that area. Bob Costrell said that is a good question and that is why he has asked for the research that the City has done on traffic flows. He said he got the formal analysis of the BWR which really does not address the traffic flows for that area. The closest it comes is doing traffic flows a little further east on Hwy 112 where the anticipated traffic flow for 2023 was 8200 vehicles a day. He said that obviously no matter what you do, it will be a lot busier out there than it is here. This is being proposed for a road with capacity up to 17,600. What limited traffic projections that are pertinent in the BWR study don't seem to support the need for a four -lane highway even up to 2023. He said the discussion of the number of units to be built in the area is interesting and important information but it is not a real formal analysis of where those people are going to be going and what their traffic flows are going to be. He requested that the City undertake something a little more formal before setting this in stone. With regard to the overall concept of 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 5 of 19 this route as he understands it, it concerns him. He said it sounds like a big portion of it is designed to get folks in Farmington off 1540 Alderman Jordan said that is a correct analysis. Bob Costrell questioned who we are trying to serve. He said the idea of taking traffic off of 1540 and putting it through their neighborhood does not sound like a compelling rationale for the citizens of Fayetteville. Alderman Ferrell asked if Mr. Costrell understands that the City has not "hung our hat" on the BWR survey. When the Street Committee was trying to come up with plans for what we thought would serve the citizens and which the citizens would accept in a proactive manner (so much so that they would vote to fund it) the BWR survey was used more as a reference. Bob Costrell said he does understand that the City did not necessarily follow all the recommendations of the survey. However, he said when he asked the City to provide the traffic analysis and traffic flow projections that would support four lanes through his neighborhood, that is what he was sent so that is what he has referred to. Wayne Calhoun said that he and his neighbors (who were in the County at the time) were not allowed to vote on the bond issue so this is really the perfect and opportune time for them to state their opposition to this plan. Alderman Jordan said that is why this meeting was set up. Wayne Calhoun Said he sees the advantages of the City of Fayetteville asking developers who want to develop a subdivision to build a road. In this case Fayetteville got the road built and they got the right-of-way deeded to them. But at best, the City of Fayetteville compromised their own requirements or suggestions for integrity of neighborhoods and safety of the citizens. He asked that the City take the opportunity to consider other options and try to uphold some of those values and virtues that are expressed in the city plan. Jeff Curbow said he lives on Weir Road where the road will come up from the Clabber Creek area. He said no one has spoken to him about this. He said all the congestion is over by the schools and where they are going to build a new school. He wondered why everybody wants to stay so far away from the schools. He said to put the road where the school is going to be. He wondered if anyone had looked at that. Alderman Jordan asked if he was talking about the new high school they are talking about building. Jeff Curbow said he was. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 6 of 19 Alderman Jordan said it hasn't yet been decided that they will build the high school there. Jeff Curbow said there is an elementary school there now. He wondered why we are trying to keep the roads so far from the school. Anyway you go about it though it's going to put the road in somebody's court. He wondered if Salem Road had been looked at thoroughly. Alderman Jordan said they did look at that somewhat. Tim Conklin said back when Crystal Springs was being developed, the City Council had a lot of discussion with regard to where to build the arterial road and whether or not it should be Salem or Rupple. He thinks this was around 1994 or 1995. At that time there was a decision to make Rupple Road more of a major road than Salem Road. The residents of Salem Road had some concerns then, much as these citizens do this evening. As a result of those discussions, Rupple Road was planned and the City actually built the portion of Rupple from Mount Comfort up to Holt Middle School. We have been working with the development community as they bring projects in to cost share and build additional portions of the road. He said Mr. Tomlinson brought his subdivision in and there was discussion with regard to Rupple being an arterial and the access management issue. He said in answer to an earlier question about where the ball was dropped, the County doesn't have any zoning requirements or building permits. He said it is very difficult to plan land use and manage what gets built in the County. The bottom line is that we built two lanes with 90 ft. of right-of-way and a note was put on the plat to limit access and that is where we are today. Alderwoman Thiel said it has been said that we allowed all those curb cuts and she wanted to ask Mr. Petrie to clarify if the City had anything to do with that. Ron Petrie said the conditions of approval for that subdivision said that they could have nine curb cuts. Nobody from the City or the County really has regulatory authority to make sure that happens so this was the result of homebuilder decisions. He said he wanted to make clear that there are no plans to build this portion (of road). He said there is no funding and no decisions on when it would be built. This is for right-of-way procurement when developments come through. The surveyors in the area are from private developments. There are no plans on the table to bring forward construction plans. Roy Slaughter said he appreciates the Committee's time. He asked how much of Salem Road is in the City of Fayetteville. Ron Petrie pointed out on the map where the city limits are. Roy Slaughter said this appears to be a by pass of the bypass. He said he understands that this is not a road yet but had a question about the statement that this is not something we are planning on doing when we have a plan for doing it. He said he understands we cannot build a City road in the County and that the area has to be annexed in before a road can be built there because it 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 7 of 19 would be City taxpayer money that would pay for it. He said his big concern is the safety of their neighborhood. He said he doesn't know of any other neighborhood like theirs in Fayetteville where you have a four -lane road coming through it. He said something should have been brought up about this (and brought forward to the community) during the planning of all this. He said no one he has spoken to knew anything about this. He realizes it is a communication issue — he said he didn't look at the plot and the 90 ft. easement. He asks that in the future that communication gets out to the neighborhoods impacted. He said if you've ever been out Hwy 112 from I540, the second 90 -degree turn there which runs into Howard Nickel road is a very dangerous intersection. He said all you'll be doing here is putting four lanes on a dangerous intersection. He asked if the City is also taking the property designated by the red line on the map going out on Hwy. 112. Ron Petrie said we are not taking any property. He said the principal arterial is on the master street plan. Addressing the other question, he said whenever it is built those intersections would be T -intersections and not the same configuration as they exist today. Jennifer Price said she thinks a lot of the problem is that as citizens of the County who live in the City planning area they have no voice. They cannot vote for City Council members or participate by being on planning boards nor can they vote on projects even though those projects may affect them. She said they have no representation so they come before the Committee each time and the Committee listens but they cannot affect anything because they cannot vote for the Council members. She said that is something that should be looked at in the future. She said they worked hard to get zoning in the County just in the planning areas because of this situation (all the developers coming out into this area and putting whatever they wanted wherever they wanted to put it with no regard to the neighbors). She said she believes that residents in the planning areas of the City should have a voice in voting on these issues that impact them. There being on further public comment, Alderman Jordan brought the discussion back to the Committee. Alderman Jordan said this issue was discussed when he first came on the Street Committee. He said they looked at the overall street plan and had conversations about this area - that all the construction was going out that way. He said around 4000 units are going into this area and that will impact the roads, especially at the intersections. He said they tried to eliminate some of the problem by creating an area around the City to take a lot of the load off those intersections. The plan was to get the traffic out and around. He said there was discussion after discussion on this Street Committee about this. He said that he and Alderwoman Lucas also discussed this at least monthly at the Ward 4 meetings for over a year. He said the first plan put together was around $170 million and we brought it down to $110 million. It was then reduced from $110 million to $65 million. Then we couldn't build the road the way we wanted to all at one time so we have had to build it in sections. He said they talked some about Salem but he believes that this area of Salem may be in the County. He said they talked about several options including the loop around the City that would hook in at the Mall, go to Zion Road and come back down Hwy 265 to 15th, 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 8 of 19 etc. He said there were lots and lots of discussions and he is truly sorry that those present did not hear about these discussions. He said we do advertise the meetings in the paper and there was a big campaign. Dover Kohl also came in talked about the boundary along Rupple Road along which there would be development with infill in from there. So there has literally been years of discussion on this. He said he did talk to staff about this and the right-of-way has been there since the 90's. He said we started with this plan, it has been approved by the Street Committee and voted on by the citizens of Fayetteville and he doesn't see any need to deviate from it. He said possibly in the future as development occurs lower down there may be a need. But right now he believes we need to stay with the plan we have. Alderman Ferrell said he would like to read what Commissioner Lack said at a Planning Commission meeting. He read "Commissioner Lack stated that often we see the existing right- of-way, that the ideal cross section is modified to meet what the City has. He had a great deal of compassion for the property owners in this instance, but didn't feel that compassion should override a City Council policy decision. In fact it may be more appropriate for the City Council to review this decision. However in looking at the map he didn't see the potential to change the current designation without shifting the same concerns to another neighborhood. He also thought that the changes in the cross section proposed with the boulevard were much more pleasing than a minor arterial or principal arterial." Mr. Lack felt comfortable forwarding the proposal on the Master Street Plan to the City Council. Mr. Ferrell said this is one of those deals that are no fun. He said the Street Committee was charged with trying to improve the streets and roads around here and they wanted to try to do it in a way that was safe and that would facilitate the movements of traffic as safely and expeditiously as possible. They also had to do it in a manner that the City could afford. He said if our plan is to allow for growth and to be able to handle this, he doesn't see how two lanes will continue to handle it. But he can't see moving it to the south. He wishes it would be doable but there are people who have lived there for a long time also. Alderman Jordan said one thing to keep in mind is that every hundred units represent a thousand trips a day on the road. And we're looking at 4000 units. Alderwoman Lucas said she agrees with both Alderman Jordan and Alderman Ferrell. She has looked and looked at this and tried to find a solution that wouldn't impact anyone. But she said we have discussed this for several years and it was in the paper about how we were looking to form this circle around Fayetteville to take some of the stress off the center part of the City. She said growth has been tremendous in that area and she doesn't see any other way of doing this. She said things can change but right now she thinks this is the best strategy of planning ahead. One of the things she has struggled with is that we haven't planned for the future. We address things today that we should have planned for in the years previous. She thinks this is something we can use as a guide in the future. Alderwoman Allen said the only thing she would add is that she served on the Planning Commission longer than she has been on the Council and the Planning Commission is just what 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 9 of 19 it says it is — a planning commission for planning ahead. She said she doesn't see a better way to do this. She would be open to any suggestions from residents in the area for a better way In response to a question from a member of the audience, Alderwoman Lucas said it was her understanding that this project was not so much to take traffic off I-540 as it was to take it more off the center of town. In order for people to get to the mall, they have to go to the center of town and go north. She said we were looking for access to the mall which is our economic engine which gives us money to build these roads. That's why we're trying to enhance access to the mall. Alderman Ferrell moved approval of the Master Street Plan with no changes. Alderwoman Thiel seconded the motion and itpassed unanimously. 4. Transportation Bond Proeram Items A. Discussion of Amendment No. 1 to the engineering contract with Garver Engineers in the amount of $278,150 for final design and bidding services associated with the Cato Springs Road Improvement Project. Chris Brown said we had a concept plan from Garver Engineers that was taken to a public meeting and reviewed by the property owners. That concept plan was approved and we are now ready to proceed to final design on this project, get the construction plans prepared and bid the project. The original contract was for $227,450 to prepare the conceptual design. This proposed contract amendment of $278,150 will finish the design and get us through bidding the project. This does not include construction phase services. We will have an additional contract amendment when we are ready to proceed with construction. The total contract, including this amendment is $505,600. If the Street Committee approves this we can get it on the Council agenda for October 2. He outlined the schedule for the project which allows 90 days (from the time we tell Garver to start) for the preliminary design and then 60 days for the final design. Alderman Ferrell said he was looking under the listing for extra work on the project and asked if there was any guess on what the extra work on this contract might be. Chris Brown said the extra work would be for items that could come up but which we do not expect to come up. It's just spelled out so that if something does come up it is clear that it wasn't included in the original contract. Alderman Jordan opened the floor for public comment There was none. Alderman Ferrell moved to approve Amendment No. I to the engineering contract with Garver Engineers. Alderwoman Allen seconded the motion and it passed unanimously. B. General update of the Street Bond Program 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 10 of 19 Chris Brown presented the summary schedule for the Street Bond Program. He said the work has been completed on the traffic calming. All the speed tables and traffic circles have been installed. He said the contractor completed the project about a month ahead of schedule. The next project that will be bid is the Gregg Avenue and North Street intersection and the improvements to Gregg Avenue. He said we did get about a month behind on this project but we expect to bid it in about a month to six weeks. He said we are looking at about a six month construction time so it should be completed by the middle of next year as shown on the schedule. Zion Road will be the next contract to be bid after Gregg Avenue. We are on a similar track on this — maybe about two months away from bidding the project. We are about 25% done with the acquisition with four out of sixteen properties acquired. That is going pretty well and there are several other properties in the works that they expect to get soon. Alderman Ferrell asked if there is still one that is a hold out. Chris Brown said we are still talking to all of the property owners and they are still talking to us. Negotiations haven't broken down. Some are getting their own appraisals and doing those sorts of things but we are still negotiating. Alderwoman Allen said she knows this chart is trouble for Mr. Brown but she thinks it is so important to the Street Committee and to the public so there are no surprises and people have an understanding of what is going on. Chris Brown continued that we will be scheduling a public meeting on the College Avenue project very soon to get it in front of the property owners. Alderwoman Thiel asked about the South College extension. She said she has forwarded every e-mail that she has received to the entire Council and she has only had one e-mail in favor of closing College. She said the thinking seems to be that Rock St. is the one that needs to be closed. She said there has to be a better solution. The people on South Street are just beside themselves. Chris Brown said that (the South Street) portion of the project appears to be the most controversial. It's a small part of the entire plan. Alderwoman Thiel wondered if that part could be left alone and still go ahead and proceed with the rest. Chris Brown said we would like to find some solution for that. Ron Petrie said the plan at this point, unless the Committee wants to change it, is to present this plan (because this is what was presented to the Street Committee) for public comment, knowing that this is the one section that we will end up revising once we get all the public comment. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 11 of 19 Alderwoman Thiel said these are all working class people and they're not going to be able to come in full force but they have sent e-mails. She wondered if we are going to have a meeting in that area and do all we can to make sure they know about it and have input. She asked if Mr. Petrie has saved the comments she has sent him. Ron Petrie said that he has all those comments. As with other projects, they will be sent with all other comments in a bundle to the Street Committee. He said they intend to have the public meeting down at the Senior Center. Alderwoman Thiel suggested using Jefferson School which would be closer. Or maybe the Yvonne Richardson Center. Chris Brown continued with his report. He said the last project he would like to talk about is the Expressway Corridor Project. We have finished the study and selected those projects. The paperwork has been sent to the State to develop agreements for those projects. That has been about three months ago and we still haven't received anything back. He said staff is getting a little concerned about that. Alderman Jordan said there really isn't anything we can do until we get that. Chris Brown agreed. He said we really can't draw up any schedules or anything until we get that back and see what's going to be required. Therefore the chart doesn't show any schedules for this project. Alder -woman Lucas asked about Mt. Comfort Road. Chris Brown said the concept plans for Mt. Comfort Road have been approved and the preliminary design has begun. He said he expects the first phase of preliminary plans should be along in five or six weeks. He said we should start seeing some property acquisition and those sorts of things by the end of the year. Alderman Ferrell had a question about the Expressway Corridor project. He said he has been reading in the news that some of the Federal funds are not being disbursed as expected from the highway trust fund. Gary Dumas said he has not heard anything about a delay in our funding. That's always a possibility when you're dealing with the Federal government. Ron Petrie said it is his understanding that the reauthorizations have made it through Congress and are at the Senate level at the moment. Alderman Jordan opened the floor for public comment. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 12 of 19 Mike Johnson asked about the Cato Springs project and if we've received the AHTD approval on that. Chris Brown said because of some of the changes that have been made on this project we want to get further into the design before forwarding it for approval from the State. Ron Petrie said we do have agreements with AHTD on Cato Springs which we didn't have on the other project. There being no further comment from the public, Alderman Jordan returned the discussion to the Committee. 5. Discussion of a request from the developers of the Crystal Springs Subdivision to jointly utilize the planned Raven Lane crossing of Clabber Creek for a golf cart path that is to be used by Razorback Golf Course. Brian Solak with Engineering Design Associates was present to answer questions. Alderman Jordan said one of the questions discussed was who is going to maintain all this. Brian Solak said the golf course will maintain it. Alderman Jordan said that the City therefore does not have to maintain it. Ron Petrie said that staff would request at a minimum that this be put in writing. He said typically the City gets bonds if we have to maintain it and we want to cover ourselves for a certain number of years that its good quality material. Alderman Jordan said another question that came up is regarding liability if there is an accident with a golf cart or something like that. Ron Petrie said he has discussed this with our City Attorney and it is his opinion that the City is covered under sovereign immunity. The City is not liable for situations that might occur. Alderwoman Lucas said it seems that there should be something that says (the golf course) should be responsible if a golf cart falls off the bridge or something. Alderman Jordan suggested we dig into that a little bit more. Alderman Ferrell said we had talked about some kind of separation (of the golf cart lane from other traffic). He asked if there is going to be something besides pavement markers to divide the lanes. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 13 of 19 Brian Solak presented a "detail" showing a handrail between the two lanes. Ron Petrie said there would have to be two sets of those, one on each side. Alderman Jordan said he would feel better if we have the agreements regarding liability in hand before we approve this. Alderman Ferrell said he thinks it is a win-win deal. 6. Discussion of the proposed access management ordinance that was presented at the September 20, 2007 Street Committee meeting. This item was tabled. 7. Discussion of Traffic calming for Miller Street, Yates Avenue and Poplar Street between Gregg Avenue and Green Acres Road near Woodland Junior High. Alderwoman Allen said she is delighted this item is here. She said it is something that has been a concern of hers for many years. She pointed out on an aerial photo some of the problem areas. She said a lot of people turn onto Poplar (off College Avenue) thinking they can go down Poplar all the way to Gregg Ave. Of course they can't because the road turns a corner and there is a house right there. She said several times big boulders have been thrown into the den of this house and they are lucky to be alive. She said that traffic also picks up a lot of speed going down the street. She said traffic is pretty quiet going in front of Woodland Jr. High School but picks up speed on the next block. She thought there should be some sort of speed table on that next block. Also, as traffic turns the corner by the house that gets hit it turns onto Yates. She thinks there should be a speed table on Yates and on Miller (off Yates). She feels that would take care of the problem. Alderwoman Thiel wondered why you would want one on Miller. Alderwoman Allen said that since Miller is also used as a cut -through she thinks it would be a good idea. However, she said she would be thrilled for the safety of the students and the neighborhood to have one in the block past the school on Poplar and on Yates. She said there is some signage on Yates and on Poplar and that helps but a speed table would be better, particularly at night and early morning when the kids are being dropped off. Alderwoman Thiel said she is certainly not at all opposed to this. But there are a lot of requests in a lot of neighborhoods for speed tables. She said the process has changed. Initially it took an entire neighborhood working really hard to get speed tables. Some of the neighborhoods did this and then the process changed. She isn't sure if this neighborhood ever went through a process. Alderwoman Allen brought the request directly to the Street Committee when in the past the 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 14 of 19 neighborhood associations have tried to work through the process. She said she understands from staff that they try to prioritize and they do traffic studies to determine the volume of traffic. She said she is just concerned about the process and if we are going to start approving these at this level. Alderwoman Allen said she doesn't think we should start doing that. She said her process started years back when she started the Woodland Neighborhood Association. She said she and Perry Franklin (traffic division) drove around the neighborhood and talked about the problems. Before she was on the Council she was chair of that neighborhood association and brought the request to the Street Committee — this was about two years ago. The lady who used to live in the house that gets the boulders thrown into it was there at the meeting. She felt urgency about the situation because of the house and the proximity of the school. She said that was the process she used. Alderwoman Thiel said she is not saying she doesn't support this or won't support it. She is just asking the Committee if this is going to be the process or if this is just an exception. Alderwoman Allen said she didn't feel it was an exception because she thought she went through the process by going through her neighborhood and being asked by them to bring it to the Street Committee a couple of years ago. Alderman Jordan said this has been through the Street Committee before. He remembers that they were going to do something in the area of the house, put some signs up or some kind of speed breaker or something. He wondered if anything was ever done. Alderwoman Allen said there are reflective signs there at that corner. Alderman Jordan said we were going to start with reflective signs and if that didn't work we were going to put something else in there that would work. That's the way he remembers it. Alderman Ferrell said he remembered the same. It would be a progressive effort. Alderman Jordan said he agrees with Alderwoman Thiel's statement that if you do something for one neighborhood you've got to do it for everybody else. The difference with this one is that it has been to the Street Committee before. Alderwoman Lucas asked how we get on the Street Committee agenda. Alderwoman Thiel said that is part of her concern. She said she believes Alderwoman Allen has shown that this situation is a little unique, that it has been to the Street Committee before. She doesn't believe we are going to start doing things this way or that the staff wants us to do it this way. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 15 of 19 Alderwoman Allen said she doesn't believe it should work that way. Alderwoman Thiel said this has been to the Street Committee and it was basically a wait and see how this works out situation and there is obviously still a safety problem there. Alderwoman Allen said she thought she had gone through the proper channels and she doesn't want to deviate from the process. She lives in this neighborhood. There is a school and children there and a great deal of traffic and people going through at high rates of speed, causing a lot of safety problems. She said she doesn't want this to be an exception. She wants to do it right and thought that she had taken the proper steps. Alderwoman Thiel said the closer you get the speed bump to the house, the more effective it will be. One of the issues with the speed bumps on Stonebridge is that they need to be situated a little closer to the problem. She said she can see if it is placed too far away drivers will have a chance to speed back up again. You need to put it right before you get to that house so they will have to virtually stop when they get to that curve. Alderman Jordan said that is right and was a part of a discussion the Street Committee had before. Alderman Ferrell said we do have a finite amount of resources to allocate to this. Like everything else, we are going to have an infinite amount of requests. But in this case, there have been progressive steps taken and the Street Committee voted to try this and if it didn't work, we would go to the next step. Alderman Jordan said another thing that was discussed is instead of a speed table for the next step we might just stripe the road a different color. Alderwoman Thiel said she does not object to a speed table right before that house and see how that goes. Alderwoman Allen said she lives in the neighborhood and she wanted to lobby for the block ahead. She said from her studying of the situation she thought if the speed table was put in the spot she pointed out on the map it would slow the traffic down before they get to Green Valley and before they get to Yates. Alderwoman Thiel said they are going to speed right back up before they get to the house. Alderman Jordan said this was discussed by the Street Committee and it was recommended that it be put somewhere close to the house. Alderwoman Allen said she will take what she can get and will come back through the proper system with the other request. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 16 of 19 Ron Petrie said the other ones are on the list to be studied. He said they are about a month away from beginning the actual data collection. The full list will be ready probably by late November. He said staff currently has thirty-eight requests and he is sure that will grow before we have the final list. Alderwoman Allen asked how far out it would be before this would actually take place. She said she has a lot of concern about the students. Terry Gulley said Mr. Petrie has given them a to-do list of fifteen right now. He said the real issue is monetary. He said each one is somewhere around $4,000. The other issue is that they have tried to make them out of asphalt and you can't roll the asphalt without rolling the corners so you get an inappropriate configuration. The other option is concrete, which works well but the only people on staff who can do those is the sidewalk crew. So he is pulling his sidewalk crew to do speed tables. That puts him in a personnel crunch and a monetary crunch because he has to take money out of his in-house paving program or the sidewalk program to pay for the speed tables. With fifteen speed tables it will cost around $50,000 to $60,000. Alderwoman Allen said she would be most appreciative of the one. She thinks it will help a lot for the safety of the children. She said we also need to look at the fact that there seems to be an awful lot of clustering in certain areas while other people are without them. We need to equitable about where we place them. Gary Dumas said the answer is they will get on the list for this year and hopefully get done. Otherwise they will be on the list for next year. Alderman Jordan opened the floor for public comment. Mike Johnson said there appears to be a continuing need and Mr. Gulley seems to have a financial problem. He asked if future budgeting should look at a separate budget for this so it isn't coming out of streets and sidewalks. Alderman Jordan said we have talked about that. Ron Petrie said the Street Committee approved $50,000 for traffic calming over the next five years in a separate budget. Alderman Ferrell moved that the item be approved Alderwoman Thiel seconded the motion and it was approved unanimously. 8. Hedge on Vandeventer (item added to the agenda) 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 17 of 19 Alderman Jordan said he had spoken with Mr. Axtel today. He said the complaint is that this hedge is on or hanging over into City property. He said he has asked Mr. Petrie if he had any ideas on how to do this. Alderwoman Thiel asked if the hedge is on City right-of-way. Ron Petrie said portions are. He said the owner has trimmed it since the original complaint so that it is not out into the sidewalk. Alderwoman Allen questioned if it is back as far as the ordinance says it should be. Alderman Jordan said the situation is that we have to have 90 ft. of sight. Ron Petrie measured that and came up with 100 ft. of sight. The roundabout seems to have brought a little of this on. He said he thinks that we should take a progressive look at this and see what we can work out. He said he had hoped Mr. Axtel could have been here tonight. He asked Mr. Petrie to explain what they had talked about today. Ron Petrie said they had discussed an alternative to doing the trimming to meet the ordinance. Even if you do the trimming there is still going to somewhat of a sight distance problem in that location. It does meet the requirements in the UDO for minimum sight distance (90 feet). They have discussed a possible yield sign for the traffic moving to the south. Alderwoman Allen said she has gone around the roundabout many times looking at this issue and she said the only spot she thought was problematic was for traffic coming from the west and going east. Alderman Jordan asked Mr. Charles Axtel to speak to the Committee about his thoughts and concerns. Charles Axtel said he still doesn't feel comfortable with the yield sign. He said he would hope that those people would yield. He distributed some information to the Committee members. He said these shrubs have been there for a long time and they (the neighbors) have always been able to work around it because they could inch out into traffic and people coming down Vandeventer toward the park could veer around them. Now they are pulling right in to them because of the island. The island has simply forced the issue. He said he doesn't have a direct issue with the island itself as far as safety is concerned. He said he isn't sure how this issue came to be referred to the Street Committee because it is a code enforcement issue. He said he has talked to the homeowner about this and tried to get it settled. He offered to compromise to keep it from dragging on. He said he met with Chris Brown and Sid Norbash two months ago and they both agreed it is an issue. He asked Mr. Brown what the most obvious way to solve the problem would be and he said it would be to cut everything within the City right-of-way. He brought some photos to show the problem. He said his first course of action was not to come to the City. He said he had tried to work with the Hills about this but they are adamant about not touching 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 18 of 19 the shrubs. He said he looked up the City code on the web site (98.04 Streets and Sidewalks) and he feels it should be applied equally to all persons. He read "no person shall allow any tree, shrub, hedge, flower or other form of vegetation to grow within twenty-five feet of the intersection of the curb lines of two intersecting streets to a height in excess of three feet above the lowest grade of the two intersecting streets. However that trees now growing in such places may grow above said height if the limbs are trimmed to a minimum height of eight feet". He said it sounds like the intent is to create a window of visibility between three and eight feet so the driver can clearly see what is coming up. Alderman Jordan said he doesn't think that there is anyone on this Committee or on the staff who think that this is not in violation of the ordinance. What we are trying to do is to work out a very delicate situation where possibly both sides can come out ahead. He said they thought they would try the yield sign first and Mr. Hill has offered to cut back on some of the shrubbery. He isn't here to address this right now but he didn't want to do the trimming right now because he is afraid it will kill some of his bushes. He said they would like to try the yield sign first and if that doesn't work, try some other method. Charles Axtel said he doesn't want to appear unreasonable but it has been over two months since he first sent the complaint over the internet. He said on Wednesday he was taking his son to school and trying to inch out onto the street (it was raining). He said the driver of a car that fortunately slowed down for the rain, had to run up on the island to avoid hitting him. She came within two feet of him. He said at this point we are talking about hedge rows versus people's safety. To him they are not even in the same ball park. He said he has almost been hit six times and his wife has almost been hit four. He said while he is hoping people would yield to a yield sign, it wouldn't help he and his family because they are being put in a position of hoping that the other people yield because they still can't see them. He said he appreciates what Alderman Jordan is saying but it still doesn't address the core issue. He said this has been a problem for years and he wasn't going to make an issue out of it but now the issue is being forced (because of the island). Alderman Jordan brought the discussion back to the Street Committee. Alderwoman Thiel said she doesn't think this is a Street Committee issue. She thinks it is a code enforcement issue. She said she doesn't understand why it is being brought here. She said she doesn't think there is anything for this Committee to rule on other than to send it back to code enforcement. Code enforcement needs to go in and make their decision. Charles Axtel said code enforcement told him it had been referred to the Street Committee. He isn't sure who referred it here. Maybe because of the island it was referred to the Street Committee. Ron Petrie said it was added to the agenda because Mr. Axtel showed up at a meeting and asked it to be added. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org City Council Street Committee Minutes Sept. 6, 2007 Page 19 of 19 Charles Axtel said that was because he was told that was the next thing he needed to do because staff couldn't do anything about it. He would like to have it referred back to code enforcement. Alderman Jordan said it appears to be the recommendation of the Street Committee that this be referred back to Code Compliance and that they follow the code. Alderwoman Allen said she thinks this may be an example of why we need to be really cautious about the turnabouts and speed tables. She said the turnabouts are more esthetically pleasing so people have a tendency to want them in their neighborhoods. She said she does have concerns that the vegetation we are planting in them will grow and that it will be real difficult for fire trucks and ambulances to get around or over them. She thinks maybe they are appropriate in some spots but not in others and maybe we learn as we go. Alderman Ferrell said he thinks if by putting in a speed table you're just knocking the traffic over to another street to bypass it, you're not being effective. Alderwoman Thiel said there was supposedly a buy in from this whole neighborhood for the islands. 9. Scheduling of the next Street Committee Meeting The next Street Committee meeting was scheduled for Sept. 20, 2007 at 5:30 in Room 219. (This was later rescheduled for Oct. 1, 2007 at 4:30 p.m. in Room 219) There being no further business, the meeting was adjourned. 113 West Mountain 72701 (479) 521-7700 (479) 575-8257 (Fax) accessfayetteville.org