HomeMy WebLinkAbout2005-03-31 Minutes (2)Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 1 of 16
Special Joint Meeting of the Firemen's and
Policemen's Pension and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Meeting Minutes
March 31, 2005
A special joint meeting of the Fayetteville Firemen's and Policemen's Pension and Relief Fund
Boards was held at 11:00 a.m. on March 31, 2005 in Room 111 of the City Administration
Building
Randy Bradley of the Policemen's Pension and Relief Fund Board of Trustees called the meeting
to order.
Present: Randy Bradley, Jerry Friend, Jerry Surles, for the Police Pension Board; Marion
Doss, Danny Farrar, Robert Johnson, Pete Reagan, Ronnie Wood, for the Fire Pension
Board; City Clerk Sondra Smith, City Attorney Kit Williams and Eldon Roberts.
Absent: Mayor Coody, Tim Helder, and Dr. Mashburn.
Highway 71 East Square Redevelopment District: A discussion on hiring legal counsel to
represent the Pension Boards' regarding the declaratory judgment suit for the Highway 71 East
Square Redevelopment District.
Kit Williams: The reason I asked that a special meeting be called jointly between you all is that
the City, to protect itself from illegal exaction suit on this TIF District that the City Council has
formed, had to file a declaratory judgment action. A declaratory judgment action asks the courts
to tell us how to divide the tax increment pursuant to the constitution and the state law. It is very
unclear exactly how to do that. If we had not done that and we had just asked the assessor to
guess about which way is the right way to interpret it, more likely than not we would have been
challenged in court by taxpayer groups saying she guessed wrong. No matter which way she
guessed, they would have said she guessed wrong, and so I did not want that to happen. To
prevent that from happening, I filed a declaratory judgment action to do two things: number one,
to say the tax increment in this district, that is questionable, should not be distributed until a
court has decided how constitutionally it should be according to the law and the constitution.
The attorney general is going to be involved with the suit. The county has already filed their
answer. The school board is going to file their answer. The library is going to file an answer and
I thought at one point that the same attorney that is representing the library could represent the
pension plans because you all are setting in almost the identical position.
A constitutional amendment was passed by the people for all three of your groups, for the
library, police pension fund and fire pension fund authorizing the citizens to vote a mil for the
funds. The question would be "Did Amendment 78, which had this general repealer clause that
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 2 of 16
says any constitutional provision in conflict with this is repealed, did it actually go back and
repeal the provisions within the amendment for you all's group that says that it will be used only
for police and fire pension funds?"
I can tell you that the courts don't like these general repealer clauses. And if they can read the
constitutional amendments together so they're saying they're not in conflict, then the previous
constitutional amendment won't be repealed to this effect. That's the argument the library's
going to make. That's at least one of their arguments that the general repealer did not affect the
original constitutional amendment that allowed the people to vote for the library mil or allowed
the people to vote for police and fire pension mils. So basically this is not going to be a trial. I
don't think there's any disputes about any facts. I think we can stipulate to all the facts. It will
just be arguments presented to the court from various sides saying the mil should be in the
district or the mil should not be in the district, and they should so remain with the taxing entities
which would be the library, pension boards, schools, or whatever.
I thought that the attorney for the library board, who is already up to speed on this, I thought it
would be nice for you all to hire him because he already knows what's going on. He's already
educated himself. The library board indicated that, no, they want him all to themselves, and they
don't want him to represent anybody else even though you certainly are not in conflict with them
and won't be in conflict with each other. You'd be making the same arguments, but if they have
instructed their attorney that he can't represent even a similar situated party, which is what you
all are then you would have to find somebody else. I would hope that what you would do is hire
the same attorney because you all are basically identical. I don't want you to spend much on
attorney's fees. You simply need to have somebody there making the same argument that the
library is going to make: that the general repealer clause doesn't affect the amendment where
you all got your right to have the millage. So it's not a difficult case for an attorney to represent
you, but you need to have somebody on your side. I'd be happy to make the argument. I'm
required to by the trust indenture that your tax increment will be included in the district and the
library's tax increment, everything but the debt service increment for the school district is
included in. I need to make the argument that the 25 mils that the attorney general opined was
not in the district will be in the district. And that's why the attorney general has agreed to come
in the case and argue this.
We need to get everything to the Supreme Court and let them decide. I would hope that you all
would choose an attorney. I know that in the past you all have used Martin & Kieklak. You
can't in this particular case because Kieklak is a JP on the county side and there would be some
potential conflict. The county millage is almost certainly in and therefore it is to the county's
benefit to get more millage in so that the debt gets paid off sooner and they would get their
increment back. So there would be a conflict with that particular firm, that is one firm that you
could not retain for this particular lawsuit. Apart from that I can't think of any other firm that
would be potentially out from the conflict of interest situation. I know that in the past there have
been some attorneys that have represented the city for certain things. You're free to determine
who you want to use one way or another. It's pretty much up to the board. I do recommend that
you try to retain an attorney, but when you do you should also try to keep the costs at a fairly
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 3 of 16
minimal level. In other words your attorney just needs to appear in circuit court and make the
argument and then write a kind of "me too" brief to the Supreme Court, but I wouldn't send the
attorney down there to try to make an argument that's already going to be presented to the court
by other attorneys.
Whoever you talk to you might try to see if they would agree to a top end of what they would
charge on their hourly rate or maybe if they would do a cap on the top end so that you would not
be out any more money than you have to. I'm open to any questions about that. I just wanted
you to hopefully work together on this. It cuts your costs in half by working together.
Eldon Roberts: Who is the school's attorney?
Kit Williams: Rudy Moore is the school's attorney and he's too involved. The library's
attorney is Vince Chadwick, he has the same interest as you, the school board has different
issues. I don't think he could and I would not recommend Rudy either.
Eldon Roberts: What are we trying to gain here losing absolutely zero tax dollars? That's what
we're trying to gain?
Kit Williams: Less than 5% of the city value is in this district and then it's only the growth on
that.
Eldon Roberts: Right.
Kit Williams: So you're talking about a very small amount of money over the long term and
that's one reason I don't want you to spend much money on an attorney to represent you. You
could spend more money on the attorney than you would ever lose in the increment. I don't want
that to happen.
Eldon Roberts: What do you feel like the chances are that we're going to be successful in this
court battle? Are we going to pay an attorney's fee and still lose the battle too? We've got to
weigh what this attorney is going to cost versus what we're going to lose. We could lose both
and the attorney's fees and the court cost.
Jerry Friend: How long is the TIF?
Kit Williams: Normally a TIF lasts 25 years and if they pay off the debt earlier than 25 years
they can do further projects. Really the tax increment, the growth is at the very end. The very
end is where you get a substantial amount of money that each taxing entity would be losing
because it takes a long time for growth to rise up but every year it's more and you stack it on
each other. The City Council, on request of Mayor Coody and the school board, passed a
resolution that said that they will not fund any further projects after this initial Mountain Inn
project. So its $3.5 million and we get $300,000 back from the sale of the land. They will use
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 4 of 16
$180,000 that for sidewalks and the $120,000 goes back for the debt. So the whole debt is
actually less than $3.4 million after we pay it back.
Jerry Friend: But that debt doesn't affect us at all.
Kit Williams: The debt does not affect you except that the debt will be paid by the tax
increment that is in the district.
Jerry Friend: But if we pay it off first, early or something.
Kit Williams: Once it gets paid off then there will be no new projects and that keeps the back
end from being a big loss.
Jerry Friend: So we have to take what we get from the tax and take 5% of it.
Eldon Roberts: Just the growth amount, Jerry.
Kit Williams: Five percent.
Jerry Friend: Five percent of all the growth.
Kit Williams: Actually 4.7% so it's even less than 5% but then you take that and then it's just a
growth within that. I think that it's probably in your benefit to work out some sort of agreement
with an attorney. There are lots of good attorneys out there. I know that on occasion that Jim
Rose has worked with the city at very reasonable rates almost as a public service and he also was
involved in the incinerator case. He knows a little bit about these sorts of tax issues. I have not
talked to him. He might be someone you would want to consider and of course Fayetteville is
full of attorneys. I'll leave that up to you all but I would think that it would be in your own best
interest to have an attorney. This attorney can basically file what I call a "me too" brief where he
looks at what the library says and says yeah us too. That's exactly our situation, we've got the
same constitutional amendment, it says it's suppose to be used for police and fire pension only
and so Amendment 78 did not repeal it and that's his argument. The same argument is made on
the circuit court level and the Supreme Court level. It's not a real complicated case and the big
thing is that there's not a fact issue. That's when trials get more expensive, you've have to do
depositions, you have trials and courtroom time. I think that we can stipulate to all the facts.
The facts really are not what are in dispute. The dispute is what does the law mean? What does
the law require? How do these constitutional amendments interact with each other? I don't
think from your prospective that it would be a difficult or expensive case. I think that you all
certainly could consult with, or interview two or three firms, or two or three attorneys, or
whatever. How the city has to select professionals like attorneys is that you are supposed to
select the most qualified and then negotiate price. So that's what you would initially do. You
could select several amongst yourself, just people that you'd think would be good attorneys, and
then look at your top selection and then certainly talk to your top selection and say well we have
very little money at stake here and we don't think it's a very complicated case. I'd be happy to
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 5 of 16
talk with whoever you select and explain the issues to them. You need to ask what will it cost us
for you to do this and if they say well I'll have to charge you $150 an hour and I don't know how
long it will take and I just can't top end, then say thank you very much and you take a look at
your second most qualified attorney and see if there is a better financial situation for you down
the line.
Eldon Roberts: Kit, did I understand you say the TIF can go for 25 years? Has there been a
projected time line on this one?
Kit Williams: There has been a projected time line under almost what I consider the worst case
scenario with only about three mils in the TIF; I think it was in the 20 year time. That assumes
that the city will never raise any millage itself and of course the City Council can and probably is
going to have to increase millage in order to make expenses in the future. All those mils would
go in without any question.
The school board is asking for almost 5 mils right now to be voted on in May. There is no
question that if that passes all those mils are going to be in the TIF. So as you see that would
even in the worst case scenario be doubling and tripling the amount of money coming in, and of
course when you do that you pay off much faster. My gut feeling on how the courts will finally
decide this is that there's going to be at least 7.66 mils in the TIF right now except that you all
and the library might actually be out but that's only 1.8. So that would still be far more than the
three that they thought were in there. I will be personally shocked if it's not paid off in a dozen
year but you know who knows. We're still waiting for the Supreme Court.
Jerry Friend: You said the worst case scenario but there's probably a worst one what if the
whole thing just blows up and explodes. I mean what would happen then?
Kit Williams: Well if the country went into a depression and property values didn't go up then
it could be a long time. The law says that the TIF will be existence until the bonds are paid. So
if the property value went down and there was not increment then it would go on and on until
finally inflation would do it. Actually even that is some what protected because right now the
assessments on property in the TIF district are doubled what they're paying because you can
only increase the amount you are paying, 5% residential and 10% commercial so there's already
built in growth at current property values right now. It just takes a while for the taxes to catch up
because of the other amendments that slow down growth. So I really think that because it's such
a small amount of money and a fairly large TIF District with other buildings like the Terminella
building and you see the other ones that are being proposed. I think the chances are extremely
good that it will be paid off.
Jerry Surles: What happens if we decide to just take our lumps and go on about our business
and just ride? The school board wins, the library board wins, are they going to go ahead and take
our money?
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 6 of 16
Kit Williams: No, I don't think so. I think that probably the Supreme Court would look at the
library's arguments and see if they apply to you. However it could concern me because as the
city attorney I want a final resolution on everything and I'd hate to get to the Supreme Court and
say you didn't get this other party. This other party never said anything about their interest so
we're not going to decide this case until they get their argument in. So it would be better for you
all at least to have someone in there making an argument for you. I can't do it because I'm
representing the City and I'm under the requirement of the Trust Indenture to make the
arguments that say you're millage is in. I think you could probably get an attorney to go forward
and make your arguments. It's possible that the court would even order that your attorney fees
be paid.
Eldon Roberts: Irregardless of what happens in all this we're going to continue to draw our tax
dollars off of this TIF District the amount we've always been drawing.
Kit Williams: Oh yeah.
Eldon Roberts: That's a true statement.
Kit Williams: It does not go in.
Eldon Roberts: We're only dealing with the increase.
Kit Williams: The increase of 5% within the whole district which is 5% of the whole town. So
you're going to get 95% of the growth regardless, you're going to get 100% of the current base
regardless and the only question would be what about the growth within that 5%? So it's a fairly
small amount and that's why I also think an attorney, especially someone that's kind of been
helpful to the city in the past would be willing to do this at a fairly nominal charge just to make
sure that everything will be presented properly.
Marion Doss: I kind of thought the way it was right now the Mountain Inn is not worth
anything so we're not getting anything for it. But I realize the whole district as it grows and as
it's worth something, we still wouldn't be getting anything until the bonds are paid off?
Kit Williams: You're talking about the millage increase on the Mountain Inn?
Marion Doss: Yeah.
Kit Williams: The Mountain Inn is figured into the base so you're getting a little bit from the
Mountain Inn now but not much. It wouldn't even be done unless we do the TIF District but yes
its growth, its value increase is going to be within the district, that's one of the big things within
the district that helps it grow especially early on. That's going to be a $22 million project and so
you go from a $1 million or less to $22 million and that's a lot. The Mountain Inn itself is
paying for a lot of this district.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 7 of 16
Jerry Surles: Would 95% of $20 million be a lot more than 100% of $1 million?
Kit Williams: The Mountain Inn is totally within the district and so all of its increase is going to
be captured by the district. All the increase in the district, which is now about 5% of the total
value of Fayetteville, but all the growth within the district, would be captured by the number of
mils that are dedicated into the district so all of that growth goes into the district. Apart from the
25 mils that the attorney general says that growth doesn't and that's of course half of it right
there.
Jerry Surles: Did I understand you to say that we'd only lose about 5%? We're getting 100%
now up to this point then the TIF comes in and we'd be down to 95%. Correct?
Kit Williams: You'd actually continue to get 100% of the base.
Jerry Surles: That's what we get now.
Kit Williams: You get 100% of the base but you don't get the advantage of increase in the TIF
District unless the court says you're entitled to it and that could be significant because there's
enough to pay off three million dollars. I mean not your millage alone but if you'd look at the
figures that the University of Arkansas Business Forecasting Unit did, there are big increases in
value coming for that district. Part of it would be the Mountain Inn, part of it the Terminella
Building and part of it is the old library now that it's been converted into private use which
means it will go on the tax roles instead of not being on the tax roles and then some of these
other projects that have been planned down there. I think it would be worth pretty substantial
money for you all even at combined of only eight tenths of a mil that's going to be still a
substantial amount of money within the longevity of the district. I can tell you this, you're
almost going to have to have a lawyer, and you're a named party. I have to obtain service.
Jerry Surles: You mean that you have already filed a lawsuit against us.
Kit Williams: That's right.
Jerry Surles: And you're sitting here telling us what we need to do.
Kit Williams: Well I'm telling you that you have to get a lawyer.
Marion Doss: Kit it looks to me like you should to be representing us as a city pension fund and
the developers representing the TIF District.
Kit Williams: The TIF District is not the developer's district. The TIF District is the city's
district, the city is the one issuing the bonds, and it's the city that obtains the money that's going
to do the project and decides what the project is. Then the city sells the property that has been
acquired and demolished to the developers at slightly above the appraised value that has been
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 8 of 16
already determined in order for them to go forward with their project. It is the City Council that
made the decision to go forward not the developers.
Marion Doss: They're actually doing it for the developers for enticement.
Kit Williams: They're doing it to get the project accomplished, that's right; if the project
doesn't go forward then this development would not go forward.
I'm required by the Trust Indenture to file this suit and go forward. There was a question in my
mind actually about whether or not I even needed to name you. You're the city really to some
extent but I felt like it was much better to have all the bases covered so that we don't expose
ourselves to an illegal exaction suit. That's the only way that we could have substantial money
loss if we didn't do this declaratory judgment suit.
I think the school is wrong. The school district has told the assessor that they're entitled to four
and half mils that were never passed by the voters for them. This is additional millage that was
never passed, but they want the increment on these four and half mils. I think that's wrong. I
think they will lose on that. If this went for 25 years, that would be like $17 million dollars. So
how much attorney's fee do you get for $17 million dollars? They would get a third. That's five
million dollars. That's enough to inspire lots of attorneys to come after them. So to try to avoid
that, that's why I filed this declaratory judgment.
Jerry Friend: So if we pay an attorney with a contract and happen to win accidentally and I
don't know how and we got five million dollars.
Kit Williams: Well you don't recover extra money. The declaratory judgment is just going to
say I don't want any of these disputed mils distributed and that's virtually almost all of these.
Eldon Roberts: We want to keep getting them.
Kit Williams: None of the increment distributed.
Jerry Friend: Let's say we did. Could that attorney then say okay you owe me a third of that.
Kit Williams: Oh no.
Jerry Friend: Not if we've contracted.
Kit Williams: The one third I'm talking about is the taxpayer's attorney if they file an illegal
exaction case and then they claim they get a percentage of what is recovered.
Jerry Friend: Been there, done that.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 9 of 16
Kit Williams: Usually it's not a third, I've seen it be a third. Hopefully, it would be less, but
even so 17 million you take 15% or 20%. That's still a lot of money.
Eldon Roberts: Do you feel comfortable in telling this board what you think the bottom and top
number should fall in between.
Kit Williams: You're talking about for attorney fees?
Eldon Roberts: Yes, sir.
Jerry Friend: For the amount of work you think that will have to do.
Kit Williams: They would have to do two things. They'd have to file one brief in the circuit
court and probably show up for the oral argument whatever that would be. They'll have to spend
a little bit of time agreeing to the stipulated facts that I'm going to prepare and propose so that
we don't have to have any evidentiary hearings. We just say that this was the ballot, this was the
ordinance it's nothing that I think is in dispute. They'd have to spend a little bit of time
reviewing that, a little bit of time doing some research and then they'll have to file a brief in the
Supreme Court. It can be pretty short; it probably would be in their case because they would be
following along the arguments that the library is going to make.
Eldon Roberts: You talking about the State Supreme Court I guess.
Kit Williams: Really there's not going to be a final decision until the State Supreme Court
gives us the final decision. If we stopped at circuit court that really wouldn't protect us.
Eldon Roberts: We want a contract. This hourly thing scares me to death because it could go
on.
Kit Williams: You could do an hourly thing with a maximum something like that if you wanted
to. I would think that it would be pretty reasonable for an attorney who realizes that it doesn't
have to go to trial.
Eldon Roberts: That's a given now it doesn't have to go to trial. That's a given?
Kit Williams: From my prospective it is, I'm dealing with other attorneys I can't imagine
there's any facts in dispute. It's just what the law means at this point in time I think. There are
other attorneys involved and until I've got every attorney to sign off on the stipulated facts, I
can't tell you that every body is going to do it. I think that they will.
Pete Reagan: So you're working with whom?
Kit Williams: Rudy, Vince Chaddick and George Butler and then whoever you all get. I've
worked a lot in the past with them and I don't think that there will be any problem. I think we all
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 10 of 16
have an interest to keep the costs down for our government that we're working for. Nobody has
an interest to run the clock. I don't know exactly what Rudy's situation is if he gets paid by the
hour. Vince I'm sure gets paid by the hour, but I think that they would be working to cooperate
with us. I don't think anybody would want to delay and run up the clock. I would think that you
all combined could probably get a contract in the $5,000.00 level as a cap. It's possible that you
could get it less than that. I'd hate to tell you. I know that in earlier cases when the city hired
outside counsel like on the incinerator case, we paid unbelievable amounts of money.
Jerry Friend: You got that.
Kit Williams: When I first got on the City Council, one of the first things I did was we fired
those out of town counsels who were just milking us. Dale Evans, Kent Hirsch and the rest made
about $2.6 million I think off the incinerator case. Well it's pretty hard to argue with that
because we paid our own attorneys more than that to lose. So it's pretty hard for us to come up
and say that's too much money, judge, because we had voluntarily paid outside counsel more
than that (which really stuck in my craw), because a lot of the stuff they did was delay tactics.
Marion Doss: Kit, we're not the only city in the state that has a TIF.
Kit Williams: We're about the only one. The only other one that has this going forward is
Jonesboro and that's going to be kind of a different issue probably. Everybody else went belly
up as soon as the attorney general said 25 mils were out. So we are the test case.
Jerry Friend: Is there any danger of this one stopping?
Kit Williams: Well I don't think so. We haven't actually done the bond closing yet on the TIF.
That comes later in April and purchasing the property. We're already working towards doing a
demolition contract.
Jerry Friend: Who's the owner of that property?
Kit Williams: Its not just the Mountain Inn we are dealing with, the owner of the Mountain Inn
is Stella Moga but we're also taking the county courts building, the county owns that. And then
we're taking the old Niblock Law Firm. You probably shouldn't use them because there's a
potential conflict there maybe.
Jerry Friend: Does the government say that we're going to sell this for $300,000?
Kit Williams: Yes.
Jerry Friend: But it's going to cost us $3 million. Whoever owns it anything they get goes
toward tearing it down first?
Kit Williams: We buy buildings, all four buildings.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 11 of 16
Jerry Friend: The owner walks off with money?
Kit Williams: Including the Redbird Cafe $2.6 million. Then we spent almost $900,000 tearing
it down and getting the site ready for development. $1.2 million is going to the Mountain Inn.
Jerry Friend: The owner of that walks away with money?
Kit Williams: She walks away with $1.2 million.
Jerry Friend: That's ridiculous Kit.
Kit Williams: It is ridiculous. We could have condemned the building.
Jerry Friend: And tear it down.
Kit Williams: But the problem with that is we would not have gotten ownership of the building
until the court case and the Supreme Court decision on our condemnation efforts against her,
which would probably be two years out. This project is contingent not only on the TIF District
and us getting this land together and selling it to them for $300,000 but also $8 million in federal
tax credits that if they're not spent this year they're lost. They won't be spent on this project so
this project would not go unless we can get a good title. The City Council decided to buy the
Mountain Inn.
Jerry Friend: I know. I know.
Marion Doss: There are certain developers that have a lot of things going on right now in
Fayetteville.
Jerry Friend: And it sticks in my craw. Big time.
Kit Williams: I think you almost have to get a lawyer to represent you jointly. I would just
urge you to have a stiff enough contract so that you end up not paying any more than you have to
and you definitely have a cap at the top of it. Your lawyer will not need to go to Little Rock to
argue before the Supreme Court. That could be part of your contract that you don't expect your
lawyer to go down there.
One thing the Arkansas Supreme Court will limit the arguments and you've got such a tiny bit
and the library will be covering it anyway. He could go down there and all he'd be doing is
sitting in the audience watching. That's pretty expensive watching. So you can limit your
expenses that way by limiting what your lawyer would be doing for you. I'm sorry that the
library decided they didn't want Vince to represent you because he already knows probably all
the issues involved in this and he's a fine lawyer and would do good job but since they bowed up
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 12 of 16
their back and said they didn't want him to work for anybody else. You've got to do what your
client is telling you.
Marion Doss: I thought maybe it was in the contract with him or something.
Pete Reagan: Let me ask you a question Kit on the assistant city attorney.
Kit Williams: Okay.
Pete Reagan: Can we use him?
Kit Williams: I wish that would be true but if I have a conflict because I am already on the
other side then anybody in my office would have the same conflict.
Pete Reagan: You're in different offices there. You're on one side and he's on the other.
Kit Williams: It's just like what I said about Martin. Why couldn't Mark Martin do it because
he's just sharing an office with Ken Kieklak, it's because Kieklak is on the Quorum Court Mark
is not, it's because they are in the same firm, if one person has a conflict they both have conflicts.
So the assistant city attorney can't argue against me.
Randy Bradley: Is this going to be in writing by our meeting in three weeks from today?
Eldon Roberts: How soon do we need to get an attorney?
Kit Williams: I would hope that you would move quickly because really we can't go forward
with the case until everybody's got their attorney in line and file their appearance.
Jerry Friend: That's cool. We won't get an attorney and the TIF can't happen.
Kit Williams: No. The TIF is going forward. What you're saying is the illegal exaction can't
happen. The TIF is going forward.
Pete Reagan: So you're saying within a week, two weeks?
Kit Williams: Yeah, I would hope that you all could do that if you would.
Randy Bradley: I personally don't want to take any action at all until all the board members are
here.
Kit Williams: Sure. In fact I don't think we have quorum except for fire. I don't think the
police has quorum. So you can't take official action. Of course you wouldn't take official action
until you hire somebody any way.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 13 of 16
Eldon Roberts: Wait a second the police has quorum.
Kit Williams: I hope that in your regular meeting of the fire pension you look at this and decide
what you want to do. We will probably need another special meeting with the police then at
some point in time to decide what you're going to do.
Sondra: Randy when's our meeting in April?
Randy Bradley: Three weeks from today.
Kit Williams: That would work for you to actually hire somebody at that time rather than
deciding to hire somebody. You know you all could meet together when you interview.
Pete Reagan: We'll have to get together to interview.
Kit Williams: Do you want the purchasing office to send a little notice for attorneys to apply or
how do you want to try to handle that?
Jerry Friend: Are attorneys bound to not apply for something they're not an expert in?
Kit Williams: You could pay a lot of money for someone to become an expert.
Jerry Friend: Right. We don't want to pay to educate somebody.
Sondra: You had suggested Jim Rose.
Kit Williams: I think Jim would probably do a good job.
Eldon Roberts: Jim's always been fair by us at the police department.
Randy Bradley: If he didn't treat us right he'd be in trouble.
Jerry Friend: Didn't you say that Odom had a conflict?
Kit Williams: No, that would be Niblock. Conrad would do a good job for you too. In fact it's
always better to interview more than one any way. If you wanted to you could actually have the
purchasing officer invite those two attorneys if that's what you wanted to do.
Jerry Friend: Has Jack got a conflict?
Kit Williams: Jack Butt? No he does not. I think most attorneys don't, very few would have a
conflict.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 14 of 16
Randy Bradley: Can we get this in writing? I can't remember all these facts of what we are
dealing with.
Sondra Smith: I can transcribe them next week.
Pete Reagan: Can we interview three attorneys if we come up with three names. Can we have
them talk to you Kit about what the requirements are going to be?
Jerry Friend: You could tell them what they're up against and then we could interview them.
Kit Williams: The only thing is I can only talk to you all since you are not represented parties, I
can recommend that you get an attorney and that's what I'm doing. Apart from that I can't really
give any advice.
Jerry Friend: You can tell the attorney how much work you expect that they are going to have
to do. Do we need a motion of some kind? Like name some names.
Jerry Surles: Can we not go ahead and pick out three attorneys.
Jerry Friend: Yeah, I think we can. Jim Rose. Jack Butt.
Kit Williams: Conrad Odom too.
Pete Reagan: With the Odom Firm?
Jerry Friend: I think those three will be good.
Pete Reagan: I think rather than interview them I think they could submit something in writing.
Jerry Friend: That makes more sense.
Eldon Roberts: I think they should be contacted and let them call Kit and let him tell them what
it's about. They should be able to give us some numbers.
Kit Williams: What I would ask them to do is just submit what they believe would be required
to represent you.
Pete: Second.
Marion Doss: Sounds good to me.
Sondra Smith: You said Jim Rose, Jack Butt and Conrad Odom.
Kit Williams: The Odom Firm.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 15 of 16
Eldon Roberts: They'll be able to get a hold of these other attorneys and talk business won't
they to get a feel for what they need to do.
Sondra Smith: So do we have a motion and second?
Pete Reagan: Second.
Sondra Smith: Who made the motion?
Jerry Friend: I think I did.
Kit Williams: Jerry Friend made the motion. Pete made the first second I believe.
Pete Reagan: Yeah I did.
Randy Bradley: I want to make an addendum to that motion. I want to nominate Pete to be the
one that gets a hold of these attorneys here in town and gets them in touch with Kit.
Kit Williams: I don't have any problems contacting them myself. In fact I'll probably see a
couple of them at lunch today.
Jerry Friend: Who else thinks this TIF deal is terrible.
Jerry Surles: Sounds to me like a bunch of attorneys are going to get money out of it to me.
Sondra Smith: I'm going to do a roll call vote on receiving a proposal from Jim Rose, Jack Butt
or Odom Law Firm.
Jerry Friend moved to receive proposals from Jim Rose, Jack Butt and the Odom Law
Firm. Pete Reagan seconded the motion. Upon roll call the motion passed unanimously.
Mayor Coody, Tim Helder and Dr. Mashburn were absent.
Eldon Roberts: If the number that comes back from these folks doesn't suit you I would
certainly go elsewhere. I don't think you're going to be bound by these three.
Jerry Friend: Oh no.
Eldon Roberts: I think they need to know that up front too, say this is not a give me thing,
we're not just going to give you a blank check. We're going to check elsewhere if we're not
satisfied.
Jerry Surles: Well apparently we need an attorney one way or the other.
Firemen's and Policemen's Pension
and Relief Fund Board of Trustees
Special Joint Meeting Minutes
March 3l, 2005
Page 16 of 16
Eldon Roberts: I think $5,000 is ridiculous.
Jerry Friend: Not as ridiculous as tearing down a building for somebody.
Marion Doss: For $900,000.
Meeting Adjourned at 11:50 AM