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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000-08-31 - MinutesMINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE SUBDIVISION COMMITTEE A regular meeting of the Subdivision Committee was held on Thursday, August 31, 2000 at 8:30 a.m. in Room 111 of the City Administration Building, 113 W. Mountain, Fayetteville, Arkansas. ITEMS CONSIDERED ACTION TAKEN LSD 00-22.00: Large Scale Development (St. Joseph Catholic Church, pp 373) Forwarded Page 2 AD 00-30.00: Administrative Item (WRMC, pp 212) Approved Page 44 LSD 00-18.10: Large Scale Development (L&E Equity Investments, LLC, pp 177 Approved Page 48 LSD 00-24.00: Large Scale Development (Stephens, pp 212) Approved Page 57 LS 00-26.00: Lot Split (Schmitt, pp 298) Approved Page 64 MEMBERS PRESENT MEMBERS ABSENT Lee Ward Sharon Hoover Don Bunch STAFF PRESENT STAFF ABSENT Tim Conklin Sara Edwards Ron Petrie Chuck Rutherford Perry Franklin Kim Hesse Page 1 Kim Rogers • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 2 LSD 00-22.00: Large Scale Development (St. Joseph Catholic Church, pp 373) was submitted by Cory Phillips of Freeland -Kauffman & Fredeen on behalf of St. Joseph Catholic Church located on North Starr Road. The property is zoned A-1, Agricultural and contains approximately 18.08 acres. The request is to build a church and school. Ward: Good morning. Let's start the meeting of the Subdivision Committee. If you are here for a different reason you are probably in the wrong place. It's Thursday, August 31, 2000. Look's like we have five items on the agenda today. The first item we will start off with is old business which is LSD 00-22.00: Large Scale Development for St. Joseph Catholic Church. Tim? Conklin: This is the second time the Committee has looked at this project. It's submitted by Cory Phillips of Freeland -Kauffman & Fredeen on behalf of St. Joseph Catholic Church located on North Starr Road. The property is zoned A -I, Agricultural and contains approximately 18.08 acres. The request is to build a church and school. The school will have an estimated 400 students. The property was annexed on July 18, 2000. The proposal is for 48,099 square foot building to be used as a church and school. There is 500 person seating capacity in the church. A future chapel is planned on the site. This item was heard at the August 3, 2000, Subdivision Committee meeting and was tabled in order for the neighborhood association which is Starr Drive and the church members to meet in order to resolve several issues that were of concern to the neighbors. I'm aware that they have met and I will let the applicants representative discuss that meeting and the neighbors. Staff is considering a condition to be placed on the Conditional Use application regarding hours of operation of the school to mitigate some traffic issues currently on Highway 45. What I'm referring to is, since the new middle school has opened up there has been congestion on Highway 45. Trying to avoid generating additional traffic during that peak hour and the inability for people to exit Starr Drive onto 45. That's something that we will look at at the Conditional Use level. Staff is recommending that this go to the entire Planning Commission along with the Conditional Use. Condition number one is approval will be subject to approval of that Conditional Use to allow a church and school in an A-1 district. I bring this up because this is zoned A-1. It does require a Conditional Use. If the Conditional Use is not passed, the Large Scale Development cannot be heard. If the Conditional Use fails, the appeal procedure is to Circuit Court. Typically, we bring churches, Large Scale and the Conditional Use together. In this situation they have followed that advice because they do need to know where the parking is in the building so that's why they are before us as a Large Scale Development. With regard to the Conditional Use • Page 2 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 3 portion, you will have to have that approval and if that's denied then the Large Scale Development needs to be pulled because there will not be an appeal of the Large Scale Development to City Council if that Conditional Use is denied. I have made a copy of the Conditional Use findings that have to be made. I know this is a little unusual to discuss the Conditional Use at Subdivision Committee but this is something that will have to be considered and addressed prior to the Large Scale Development. This is out of our Unified Development Ordinance Section 163.02 with regard to the Authority, Conditions and Procedures for a Conditional Use. The Planning Commission shall hear and decide only such special exemptions as it is specifically authorized to do. This is under Use Unit Four Decide such questions as are involve in determining whether a Conditional Use should be granted. Grant a Conditional Use with such conditions and safeguards as are appropriate under this chapter. Deny a Conditional Use when not in harmony with the purpose and intent of this chapter. The procedures: a conditional use shall not be granted by the Planning Commission unless and until a written application is applied for if they have applied for that. Once again we don't typically review the Conditional Use at this level but as we talk about what the church has done to help mitigate some of these concerns of the neighbors, they directly reflect the Conditional Use. They paid the fee. The Planning Commission shall make the following written findings before a Conditional Use shall be issued. That it is empowered under the section of this chapter described in the application to grant the Conditional Use. Granting the Conditional Use will not adversely affect the public interest. The Planning Commission shall certify compliance with specific rules governing individual Conditional Uses; and, that satisfactory provisions and arrangements have been made concerning the following, where applicable: a. Ingress to and egress from property and proposed structures thereon with particular reference to automotive and pedestrian safety and convenience, traffic flow and control and access in case of fire and catastrophe; b. off-street parking and loading areas where required, with particular attention to ingress and egress, economic, noise, glare or odor effects of the special exception on adjoining properties and properties generally in the district; c. refuse and service areas with particular reference ingress and egress, and off- street parking and loading; utilities; screening and buffering; signs; required yards and open space; and general compatibility with adjacent properties and other properties in the district. If the application is denied by the Planning Commission, it may not be reconsidered within twelve months from the date of final disapproval. I wanted to go over those standards with you. I thought that might be helpful for the Subdivision Committee and St. Joseph's Church and the residents on Starr Drive to know what the Planning Commission will have to look • Page 3 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 4 at with regard to approving an Conditional Use and then considering the Large Scale Development. That's condition number one. Number two, approval shall be subject to the approval of a Conditional Use to allow the additional parking spaces Under Chapter 172 our Unified Development Ordinance does allow one space per every four seats in the auditorium for a church and one space for every 1200 square feet of classroom area for the school. The code permits 168 spaces maximum. The applicant is requesting 281 spaces, 113 additional spaces. At the August 3, 2000 meeting applicant was requesting 306 spaces. Number three, the Planning Commission determination of compliance with our Commercial Design Standards. We have listed those again. Those five elements are in there. I won't read those. We are all familiar with those. Planning Commission determination of the requirement for off-site improvements to Starr Road. They are planning to widen Starr Road north of this property to a minimum of at Least twenty feet, in most cases it's more than twenty feet wide, to County standards. We are also looking at the City doing a cost share if we can get that approved to make it to curb and gutter standards and work with the church to get that up to our City standards of a city street. Curb and gutter shall be removed through the sidewalk at driveway approaches. That's referring to the driveways on the site plan. Planning Commission determination of a requested variance from the maximum twenty-four foot parking lot aisle and driveway width allowed by code. The applicant is proposing two 26 foot wide driveways connecting to two 26 foot aisles. There is a letter from Cory Phillips the applicant's representative. Number seven, Planning Commission determination of right-of-way dedication for the continuation of Arapaho Drive. Staff is not recommending any right-of-way to be dedicated at this time. At the northeast corner this touches Arapaho Drive. Staff did not recommend that to be extended. If the Stanbury property ever does develop, there is still ability to connect that street. Also, looking at this, when we do have a stub -out like this that's in Barrington Park, Phase Two, in my opinion, it doesn't mean that it goes directly back to the west in a straight line. That is designed to provide access for future streets that wind back through at subdivision. That's kind of how I look at stub -outs. I bring that to your attention because you may not look at it the same way I do. I don't think when you have a stub -out you just draw a straight line for a certain distance. That's kind of what I'm looking at. All utilities shall be placed underground. All ground and roof mounted utility equipment and dumpsters must be screened from public view. Those are the conditions that have been placed on this item by us The rest of the conditions are standard and what we normally get on a Large Scale Development. That is all I have on this. We have attached projected traffic for a 400 student elementary school. On an average week -day total volume is about 408 vehicles. • Page 4 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 5 Keep in mind that's two-way. We also had a traffic count done last February Typically on Starr Road in a twenty-four hour period you have approximately 1,000 vehicles per day. We are adding approximately 400 vehicles on top of the existing 1,000 vehicles per day on Starr Road. I have included those traffic counts and that calculation for an elementary school. Franklin: You just said they are adding 400 vehicles to that count. Isn't that 400 tnps? Conklin: Trips. Yes. Franklin: That's two-way in and out. I just want to make that clear. Conklin: Thank you, Perry. I don't want to mis-speak on vehicles and trips. We are looking at trips. That's the information we have for you today on what kind of traffic we do have out in this area. Ward: Chuck, do you have anything to say about the sidewalks? Rutherford: They have made the corrections that I asked for. Ward: Ron? Petrie: The only thing I've got at this time, we discussed at the last Subdivision Committee meeting getting some costs estimates for these off-site improvements. Have you done that? Just curious where we are on that. Phillips: No. We haven't got that formally put together completely just yet. It's still up in the air as to what all is being asked for. We wanted to make sure we got everything finalized before we sit down and figure out what that exact number is. Petrie: I believe we need that before it goes to Planning Commission. Just so everybody is aware, if the City does cost -share this is going to cost them a certain amount of dollars, they need to know that. We need to know whether it will be feasible with the City participating in that. I think it's important we get those numbers before Planning Commission. Ward: Perry, do you have anything to say about stop lights? Franklin: Just for your information I could tell you where we are with all that right now. Page 5 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 6 Since I'm in traffic, I'm very well aware of all the traffic that's going on out on Highway 45. I've been out there practically every day in the morning. Not in the afternoon but in the morning, several days since this started out there. I would like to say because of the cooperation with parents and the school officials and their army of ladies that work in traffic, they really have done a great with helping that situation out there. We did have Mr. Harold Beavers, who works with the Highway Department, out there last Thursday afternoon to look at all of it. I have a letter from him where he is going to look at and is considering an extended left turn, center turning lane all the way across, about 800 feet or so in front of that school. Right now it's just under consideration. Also, for me to supply him with the numbers of Whippoorwill and 45, which we have done two other times since Vandergriff opened up. That has never met any of there warrants for a traffic signal but they will look at it again. We are in the process of getting left turners and right turners In the next week or so we will be counting through and getting a new set of numbers for them to send to Little Rock to see if it's possible to permit a traffic signal there. I would like to say for those I know that live out there and see this everyday, a little bit of that process that they may not realize is that when they look at a warrant for a traffic signal, this really comes into play out there at Vandergriff,.the Highway Department throws out all the right turners. They don't count the right tumers no matter where they are looking at a traffic signal warrant study, they do not count right turners because right turners typically come up there, stop, look, take a right and they don't use the traffic signal. What we have out there is we have this humongous, short window of traffic coming in on 45. A high percentage of them are turning right and going to Vandergriff. Since the traffic flow has been changed one way to Township, there are no outbound traffic counts at that intersection. That leaves whatever is at Whipporwill and whatever is trying to make a left and go into Vandergnff being considered for a traffic signal which is really considerably less than what we had last time we looked at it. Right now I really don't think that there is a real good possibility there will be a traffic light Whipporwill. Our hope is there is going to be some road improvements. This left turn lane would be short term. The City realizes the need for some road improvements out there on 45 beyond the scope of this job that's going on right now but that's later on down the road. Saying that, l will say the information Tim has given you, we did three days worth of counts out there and they average pretty much to about 1,000 cars a day. It's about 50/50, 500 southbound and 500 northbound in a twenty-four hour period. Our counts are showing that a typical a.m. peak it was two days at 6:45 a.m. and two days at 7:00 a.m. Those were averaging somewhere around 80 to 90 cars northbound coming out. From what I've seen out there in the last week or so there's been really good 4111 Page 6 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 7 improvements made in the traffic flow out there in front of McNair school. You will see some days when there are some problems. One of the contributing factors to that, is what happened yesterday, if the Highway Department is doing something major down on 265 and they are flagging traffic at 7:00 a.m and backing up cues of cars from 50, 60 to 100 cars, that signal down at 45 and 265 can't recover from that during that peak period. What happens is this starts maxing out all the way around. That affects the inbound, outbound, northbound, everything. That's something we are going to have to live with until they get that project done. When they get through that project... I wish they were coming over the top of the hill past Whipporwill as an improvement but they are not. They are going to stop at Box Lane. We are hoping to get that left turn lane in. The improvements that they are doing at that intersection, northbound/southbound, they are taking two lanes through and termination northbound about a quarter mile and eastbound/westbound they are providing longer left turn lanes at the intersection. When they get through we think we will be able to improve the cycles there to improve inbound traffic on 45. We are going to be moving lots more northbound/southbound traffic than what we have been able to pass. With two lanes south and two lanes north I think we will have some improvement at the intersection of 45 and 265 which is probably still a year and a half from now. We are hoping that there's going to be some good benefits from that improvement. I might say real quicky, we are talking about trips and I talked to Tim, when we say 400 trips that's two-way traffic. That's 200 cars going in there and coming out. The trip generation report which I have a copy of here, what that is is the Institute of Transportation Engineers, every three years, they spend three years making counts of all kinds of uses across the United States and put them in a book about this thick. That has been reduced to software that we now have available to us Basically, it's the only thing at this stage that gives us an idea what kind of traffic a use is going to generate. This report we have, since a school basically is a morning activity, folks come and let their kids out and they generate regular traffic beyond that until 3:00 p.m. or whenever their let -out time is. What we have is a peak hour sometime between 7:00 and 9:00 studies show across the United States, at a private school that there is going to be about 220 cars to come in there and 148 come out. That's probably employees and teachers that stay there. Then there is no other traffic generated throughout the day until between 4:00 and 6:00. Exiting they show 48 exiting and 32 entering In a private school, there must be a period there where folks come and get their kids which is not typical with a regular elementary school. Some come a little bit earlier and some come a little bit later. It must be strung out a tittle bit longer than right at a certain hour. That's just what studies show across the United States. They update these • Page 7 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 8 every three years. I believe that's all unless anybody has any questions. I'll be happy to answer any questions if somebody doesn't understand that. Bunch: What is the anticipated impact of opening the new extension between Township and Fox Hunter at 45? Is a signal anticipated on that? Perry: Are you talking about Covington? Bunch: Yes. It's supposed to open in November or something like that. Perry: I'm sure that some people will go up there to avoid the heavy right taming movement that we have going onto Vandergriff. We don't really have a large volume of cars, it's Just that what we do have comes through there in a very narrow window of time. The whole a.m. peak is all trying to get through that area in a thirty minute period and with that is all the school traffic Tim and I were out there yesterday and at ten minutes after eight it was all over. Conklin: At 7:54 it was backed up past Timbercrest, at 7:55 it was free flow out there. Perry: It's definitely an event that occurs from 7:30 to 8:00 then that a.m. peak is over with. I would think there will be some folks that cut up and go around but a lot of the cars I'm seeing out there, when I stand out there last week watching that there were a lot of inbound traffic or right turners on this Vandergriff. They are just constantly turning right going to Vandergriff school. Then there is the work traffic intermingled with them. A lot of that backed up is because those right turners have to slow down to make that right. That does slow down the inbound cue that's coming into town. I would anticipate that some of those people that want to try... Probably anybody who would go to the right down there at 265 probably will try going up the other street. We definitely will be counting. Ward: Do you have a feel for how much of that existing traffic is associated with St. Joseph's at it's current location. Perry: I don't really know. That would be something St. Joseph might be able to supply that to us. It would be interesting to know. PUBLIC COMMENT: Thiessen: Excuse me. I'm the Principal at St. Joseph's. We have counted cars and we have Page 8 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 9 had 125 drop-off in the morning between 7.15 and 8:00. Then we counted in the afternoon. We do pick-up at two times. We do a 3:00 dismissal for our K through 3 students. We have 35 cars in that first waves and it takes about ten minutes for them to get out. At 3:15 we dismiss 4 through 7 and we have about 40-45 cars in that pick-up and it only takes about ten minutes to get out. By 3:25 we have finished. Bunch: Do you have any idea how many are coming in from 45? Coming to the 45/265 intersection? Thiessen: Each dot represents a family on this map of where our families live. They come from all different directions. Four families from Goshen. Franklin: One comment I might make about her numbers that are interesting I'm interested in hearing that number because in the ITE trip generation the only private school study is K through 12. That's the only choice I can make was K through 12 and I understand your Catholic has? Thiessen: K through 7. Franklin: So in a typical private school with K through 12, then I would imagine that a lot of these vehicles are those students who have driver's licenses in the upper grades of 10, 11 and 12. That's why we are showing 220 vehicles but that's K through 12. I just wanted to point that out. Thiessen: We have 204 families at this point. We have lots of people who car pool. Moreno: I'm a former principal. I'm at St. Joseph's parish right now. Let me interject one more thing. About 60 of those students are not picked up because they are in the after school program so they are not picked up until like 5:30. Ward: Let's kind of get back on track Kim, do you have anything to say on this thing? St. Joseph's Catholic Church. Hesse: They pretty much met my comment. Most of my work will be at the point of construction. They have some trees on the east side we will have to work around. Ward: Thanks Kim. I'll go ahead and bring it to the applicant. Do you have anything you would like to discuss with us first? • Page 9 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 10 Hennllee: My name is Tom Hennllee, I'm the Co -Chairman of the building committee at St. Joseph's. What I wanted to do was first to apologize for not having a St. Joseph's representative at the last Subdivision Committee meeting. I know that caused a lot of confusion or a lot of unanswered questions. What I'd like to do is address the concerns as I understand them based on the minutes of the last meeting and let you know what's transpired since that last meeting and we have representatives from all aspects from the parish and the school to answer whatever questions you have. The way we have understood the concerns of the Starr Drive Neighborhood Association. Let me address our intention for this property. Currently, St. Joseph's, as you know, is located over on Lafayette Street and we have a huge parking problem on Sundays and during school events as well as our sanctuary is undersized. We set out on this mission to find a larger piece of property so that we could build a church that would accommodate the growing parish and a Catholic school and a Catholic parish go hand-in-hand. They are located in neighborhoods all across the country and they have become very integral parts of neighborhoods and I'm sure there is plenty of people over in the historic district that would attest to that. We set out to find a piece of property that we could fit in comfortably. We proposed this project. The school has recently added a seventh grade. As far right now there is no intention for the school to go beyond the seventh grade. We added the seventh grade to keep up with Fayetteville's school structure when they went to a middle school context. We were either forced with the decision of dropping the sixth grade or adding the seventh grade. So what we did is we added the seventh grade and we are still in the growing stages of that right now. I would imagine that as the years go by the seventh grade will become a normal size class, which it's not right now. We have no intention of building a high school out here or ajunior high out here. There is a study under way right now for a regional high school which would more than likely be located in the Springdale area to draw from Rogers, Fayetteville, Springdale and Tontitown. The property which is east of the creek... This property is divided by a major drainage path which contains about eleven acres west of the creek and about seven acres east of the creek. The flow that comes down through here and I don t have the numbers for that, I'm sure the Engineer can provide them. To build any structure we could cross this creek with vehicles would be incredibly expensive which is the reason why we have utilized primary the western eleven acres of the site. Additionally, there are wet weather springs that are located on the east side of this property which would make it more difficult for us to build anything on. If we were to locate parking over there, I think everybody would agree that is a considerable walk for our parishioners to go from a parking lot on the east side of the creek to the west side. We left this open for general purpose playing fields, • Page 10 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 11 soccer, baseball, whatever for the kids who are now playing on an asphalt covered playground as well as an area for a church picnic, school picnic, nature walks for the science classes and that type of thing. That's a luxury we don't have nght now. As far as our intentions on this property, you pretty much see them. There may be the possibility of a gymnasium later on. We haven't done any planning for that yet. There's no designs. The only other is the future chapel that you see. At the last Subdivision Committee meeting, the concerns that the adjacent property owners and the Stan Drive Association had, as we understood them from the minutes, was the expanse of asphalt that was located right off Starr Drive and I guess a perceptual lack of landscaping, lighting was a concern and the location of the school in it's proximity to Starr Drive. Because of those concerns, the project was tabled until we could get together with the Starr Drive Association. We met with the Starr Drive Association, I say we it was six members of parish met with the Starr Drive Association to hear all of their concerns. What we did was we basically entered that meeting as a fact finding mission just to hear their concerns so we could take them back to our engineer and architect and have them address them. The concerns that we heard, outside of the traffic, were lighting, proximity of the school, dust as they were stated at the Subdivision Committee. In response to those what we had done, the project you see before you today differs from the one that was submitted earlier in that the western side of the main parking lot, fifty parking spaces have been eliminated. Where those fifty parking spaces were located we increased the green space to a total of eighty-six feet from the back of the curb on Starr Drive, the proposed curb. In that eighty-six feet of green space there is a proposed berm with landscaping, which you can see on page 2 or 3 of your plans, to include several pine trees, deciduous maples and that type of thing which we feel will screen this parking lot from Starr Drive substantially. The lighting was a concern. There were nine light fixtures that were located in that parking lot, that's been reduced to five. Let me add that these lights are not lights that stay on like street lights do. We turn these on and off as needed. Currently, where we are located now, lighting is a significant problem. It's pitch black on our site right now. Normally the lighting comes into play in the fall and the winter months when we have the youth group, they have activities during the week, the bridge club and bingo and that type of thing. As soon as those activities are over which almost never go past 9:30 or 10:00 those lights are turned off. The possible exceptions would be the Easter vigil mass or the mass at midnight on Christmas Eve. The lighting has been reduced. With regards to the location of the school on Stan Drive, or it's proximity to Starr Drive, the topography of this site is such that the westernmost portion of the site slopes down at a pretty decent rate and as it approaches the creek, as you can imagine, it flattens out. We utilize • Page 11 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 12 • Ward: the slope on that site to gain a second level in the school. If we looked at moving the building to the east two things happen, one is we lose the benefit of the grade on the site to do that and we also approach the creek and the flows that are coming down that drainage path. The costs associated with moving that building is tremendous. The cost incurred so far, we had a bid based on the original set of plans, that bid we have been informed will not be honored because of the delay from the tabling of the last meeting. They can't guarantee that they will be able to keep that same price which is a cost to us of about $300,000. We feel like we have done as much as we can do to screen this site and make it fit in with the neighborhood and address the concerns of the Starr Drive Association as we understood them. At this time I am going to go ahead and open it up to the public. Is there anyone that would like to make a public comment? If you do, I would like you to state your name first and then give your comment. Warren: I did want to give just a quick history because I think it will help in the decision and how things are done. My name is Paul Warren, I'm from St. Joseph's Church. I'm the parish coordinator there. I have made a little history out that you may interested to perusal. One of the reasons we purchased this property was, the church owned it in 1844. That was when the Catholic Diocese of Little Rock was formed and we bought 640 acres. Of that 640 we have now bought back 18 %z form Dr. Stanbury. We are kind of going back home, it's a nostalgic thing for us. We moved to our current site in 1872 and have occupied it since. Basically, with regards to this specific plan if you will jump to May 13, 1997, we bought the property from Dr. Stanbury. At that time we disclosed fully to Dr. Stanbury what our intentions were and it was critical for him to know or he would not have sold us the property so we disclosed exactly what we were intending. He agreed to do the sale. On September 14, 1997, we had our first parish picnic and we introduced our parishioners to this new site that we had purchased and people kind of got excited. We put up a bunch of display boards about possibilities and people came in and talked about that. We had another picnic on September 13, 1998. At that one we introduced the vision that we had for this current site and on February 21, 1999, we hired the current architects that we have to build the chapel center. March 21, 1999, we had a town hall meeting which all parishioners were invited to talk about this whole proposal. June 1999, we began bulletin announcements on a regular basis, telling people what we were doing and how it was happening. On July 10, 1999, we had another town hall meeting to discuss the capital campaign and the specifics of the building project. September 2, 1999, • Page 12 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 13 we met with the Starr Drive Property Association at 1663 Starr Drive to negotiate with Arkansas Western Gas Company to relocate a gas pipeline that they were proposing to go through there. A seven inch transmission line at 600 psi, a monster transmission line. Should it ever breech, I understand there was one that breeched in New Mexico recently that killed ten people. There was a fear that if something this size breeched, it would be disastrous for a school that would be located within sixty feet of this. That was September 2, 1999. If you will flip your page, at that meeting you will see the plat that was handed out to all persons present and it was articulated very nicely. Group: We didn't get it. Warren: They will have to disagree with me. I handed this out to all who were present. That was on September 2, 1999. Arkansas Western Gas, by the way, did relocate that pipeline back to Highway 265. September 19, 1999, just two weeks later, we had another parish picnic that we invited all to. We do hand out flyers to all members of the Starr Drive Association for those meetings and that picnic. April 8, 2000, we had another town hall meeting which all parishioners were invited to. June 26, 2000, was the annexation for the City of Fayetteville. There was no opposition, in fact there was a lot of encouragement for annexation. July 9, 2000, we had a ground breaking and another parish picnic. August 3, 2000, we neglected to come to the Subdivision Meeting basically because we didn't feel there was any opposition because we had been very forward in presenting our plans and people knew what we were about. We don't think we were hiding anything. Based on the annexation meetings, everything went smoothly so we thought we were going to have a rubber stamp. On August 17, 2000, we met with the Starr Drive Association. Ward: Thank you. Does anyone else wish to speak on this Large Scale Development? Please stand up and state your name. L.Long: My name is Larry Long I live on Starr Drive. I guess I'm the perpetual President of the Starr Drive Association because no one else will take it. It seems like we have had these issues come up from time to time. I should digress a little bit to talk a little bit about the history of this project. I'm sitting in the room with many great friends and very good people who are proposing what I believe to be an extremely worthy project. As a representative of our neighborhood and this is just the Starr Drive Association, we have to keep in mind that this neighborhood is also surrounded by Sequoyah Woods, Barrington and Madison. It is right in the • Page 13 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 14 middle of a rural residential area. Those people have expressed concern too and we even have written statements from those people who were notified as adjacent neighbors that they are extremely concerned that this is truly a Conditional Use. By the way, Tim, you do have an email that I sent a while back that was included in your packet. Tim, that is an email, I think you picked the wrong one. That one had to do with, we just wanted to make sure that sidewalks are being put in on the Sweetser Property. There was also an email that summarized what we asked of the St. Joseph's Building Committee and there was also an attachment which I have copies of here actually. I don't have a copy of that email to you which certainly was a literary masterpiece since no one will believe me. That red sign, I don't know what it does to people's personalities, but it seems like everybody calls me and in fact they did. This was prompted. A number of neighbors came to me and said, "Here are our concerns and they are very serious." We presented those at the last meeting and it is not our intention to do that again, it's just that accept for Commissioner Ward here who was not present at the last meeting. I'm going to read a little bit of this because some of us sat down last night and I want to make sure the words are appropriate. Before we do that, I'm going to try to make it as short as possible from our prospective. We are not really going to address whether this is appropriate for the character of the neighborhood. We are not looking at property value. We are not looking at signed documents of people who are concerned about it. We really want to look just at the feasibility of this project. Can it be done? It's not only for us that we are concerned, it's also for the parishioners of St. Joseph's. Optimally, we would like to resolve the issue of whether or not it is feasible to build such a high activity complex on Starr Drive. The vast majority of the people in our neighborhood seriously question whether this is an appropriate Conditional Use for this property. After we present our concerns and the St. Joseph's Building Committee presents their traffic study and the plan to enable the free-flow of traffic along Starr Drive, the Subdivision Planning Commission deems this project feasible, we can discuss the other concerns. I hope that's alnght with you if we can do it like that. However, if it is deemed not feasible than all of these other issues are moot. We are here today because our neighbors are concerned and because the Commissioner viewing this proposal on August 3, 2000, expressed similar concerns. Commissioner Estes was here and he said "I don't see how in the world Starr Drive can support this kind of development." Commissioner Bunch noted that "This was an urban design in the country." He showed extreme concern. Commissioner Hoover said she had the same concems as us plus a long list of others. That says that we perhaps should be here. Perhaps the parishioners of St. Joseph's should be questioning the Building Committee here. Now, an apology. Neither the Starr • Page 14 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 15 Drive Association nor the St. Joseph's Building Committee thought this project through a year ago. They bought a piece of land, planned a beautiful, a wonderful church and off-site was not much of a consideration. As far as we are concerned, we said "Hey this is great. A church is coming in." Most of us until the end of this summer were not aware of the school. When we became aware of the school, most of us just said, "Hey, this is going to be an awful situation. Especially the traffic." We let it go. In truth what we should have done is examine this project more closely, done a comprehensive traffic study and highly questioned the wisdom of this location. St. Joseph's should have done the same. Neither of us did. I apologize for our part. The question today is whether both of us should admit our oversights and look at alternatives or should we press on and march one step closer to creating an untenable situation for all of us? The potential problem is not just for Starr Drive and St. Joseph's but for the entire Highway 45 corridor which includes a large middle school and a large elementary school. For this area of town increased traffic generated by a large complex is sure to place extreme stress on the 265 intersections from 16 all the way up to Joyce. We appreciate the concession of the green space in front of Starr Drive but the revised plan is essentially the same. We also appreciate cutting down on the lighting. Building a large high -activity school on a substandard County road with limited access can only exacerbate the grid -lock that currently exists on Highway 45 during peak hours of the day. If the proposed project is built, grid -lock is inevitable along Starr Drive and this is an important point. Cutting off essential services to the neighborhood during portions of the day. We talked about traffic and Perry Franklin, whom I have been talking to for years about improving this road, it is not improved as a matter of fact for those of you who are not familiar with it, this is the area in front of Starr Drive that they are planning on building a church. That point is fourteen feet wide, barely room enough for one car to pull through. This is the intersection in front of Vandergriff. This was taken on Monday, I think. This is a typical day. By the way, I was there at 7:00 this morning, traffic was backed up well past Starr Drive. This is a shot from Fox Hunter Road. You have to remember that this is not the same situation that they are in right now where they have a number of points of access to the school and that is a problem area There is only one point of access and that is this substandard road. There is only one logical egress from that area and that is on 245. The studies and the numbers that you should have in your folder, really shouldn't reflect Starr Drive. Of course they should reflect Starr Drive but what we should be looking at is that traffic along 45 and what it will be This is bad but in truth, once all of the traffic dies down, then it really gets bad. Once the grid -lock releases which is about one hour, then it get's bad. How is that? We should explain it. Those of us who are • Page 15 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 16 along Starr Drive know the situation. It is a continuous stream of high-speed traffic that goes in front of Starr Drive. That is anywhere from 45 to 65 miles an hour. That happens through much of the day. This is a typical scene. Try to enter that traffic. Cars are spread out anywhere from 100 to 200 feet going 55 miles an hour. They are coming mainly in and often out. What we have to do, most of us are turning left to go into town, what we have to do is perform what most would consider a death defying act. We have to time it just right for this person careening down the hill at 55 and try to slip in to these 200 or 300 feet slots. I have two powerful cars and one that's not so powerful When I'm in my not so powerful car, I'm scared because you have to turn up a steep hill. You can't wait at that intersection for someone to turn left because sure enough as soon as someone turns left, the person around them goes around the left hand side. As far as the danger is concerned, I am only one family, we are only one point but my family has been involved in an accident at that corner. My wife was hit while she was sitting still when someone was trying to negotiate. That is about a 110° turn so you have to come to almost a complete stop. Most people aren't ready so there's lots and lots of rear -enders going both directions on that Highway. I don't know if there is any statistics that Perry could come up with on this but this has to be one of the most dangerous intersections per car traveled in town. It gets much worse. The volume of traffic will increase enormously over the next years as the current developments are filled and new ones are started. Already we have construction on a new bank of eighteen apartments at that corner, a new bank is under construction, Barrington has scores of houses yet to be filled. There are twenty other major developments out that way and even one that is scheduled for four hundred apartments/condominiums. It will get much worse before it gets better. Then it could even get much worse than that and that is that there really are no plans to widen Highway 45. I have talked with Mr. Beaver of the State Highway Department. We have been talking about improving Starr Drive now for nine years, nothing has been done. We can't plan on something being done anywhere, on 45 or Starr Drive. I've made at least one hundred calls regarding Starr Drive on the behalf of the neighborhood. At one point in time the City said "Yes." That was part of the Master Plan. Then we got word that nothing was to be done so we can't count on that. I would imagine and we invited St. Joseph's to do this to have a field day tnp during a school day, meet at the school and see what happens. It took me a minute to get onto 45 this morning at 7:52 to come here. There is going to be a substantial cue and that is going to get worse. We estimate the round-trip from most points in town to be at about an hour for a parishioner to bring a child to the school. Even if the City, the County and the State could agree on improvements, if we widen Starr Drive to three lanes or four • Page 16 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 17 lanes, what would that do? That would simply feed traffic onto a grid -lock situation. There will be a traffic light up by Vandergriff long, long before there will be a traffic light, if ever, on Starr Drive. Thus continuing this death -defying situation. Let me address whether this should be an appropriate Conditional Use on Starr Drive. As Commissioner Hoover Looks at that map she can see that there is only one access point into and away from this school. It is on a dilapidated County road with no plans to upgrade it. It is the only conduit to this facility. Starr Drive dumps onto 45, a grid -locked road, during peak periods and at dangerous other times. This is a very high activity facility. The Commissioners should know that when considering this as a Conditional Use. It's something that we didn't think about until we sit down and ran out the numbers. Mr. Hennllee says this is the second largest Catholic school in the state of Arkansas. That's what you said at our meeting. Is that correct? Hennllee: I said this will be the second largest Catholic church when this finally developed. L.Long: Okay. The school is planned at a capacity of 400 plus people and expansion apparently is planned for the future in this area. How large will it be? I don't know. This activity is seven days a week from sun up until late evening as they indicated and sometimes into the wee hours of the night. Activity wise this traffic will be at least as great as that of Vandergriff because Vandergriff is a neighborhood school and many of the students are bused. This is not a neighborhood school and to my understanding there is no busing. One can expect that the traffic at this facility to be equal or greater to that of a large scale commercial development so we should perhaps consider that whether this is an appropriate Conditional Use. To put the proposed facility in perspective consider that the Harp's Mall parking lot is smaller than the proposed parking lot and even has half of the proposed number of lights. Well now it has about the same with the revised plan Also consider this, is this property and I asked the St. Joseph's people to consider this as well, is this property adequate for the school? The Arkansas State Department of Education requires a minimum of twenty acres for new construction of elementary schools the size of St. Joseph's. Bobby New in the Fayetteville School District could not put a school on property this size. It would not be permitted. These guidelines do not apply to private schools but they do provide some insight as to the appropriateness of this site for an elementary school. Of course it is almost twenty acres but then you have to consider that there will be a large church and also there are middle school grades here as well. A point that has been brought up by several of the neighbors and then a lot of them didn't consider it but I think it's extremely crucial that unless we have • Page 17 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 18 111/ Ward: R.Marx: major, major update to 45 and to Starr Drive. Many neighbors along Starr Drive will be cut off from essential services during much of the day through the grid- lock. There will be no fire, no police and no ambulance dunng cntical periods of the day. Also, there are at least three or four school buses that travel Starr Drive, these will be delayed by anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes. We could go through a laundry list of concerns and there are many but the questions remains, is this an appropriate use for this property and more importantly is this really what informed St. Joseph's parishioners would want? Can they get to this facility? There are many unanswered questions which probably won't be answered today. One that I wrote down just a few minutes ago, if the regional high school is built from 9 to 12, will there be an 8th grade to fill that slot? Probably so. I guess very telling, at our joint Starr Drive Association/St. Joseph's meeting which I think was very amicable, Starr Drive Association Vice President, Carol Marx asked the St. Joseph's representatives if they would want this facility across the street from their home or even in their neighborhood, there were no responses, only bowed heads. Please try to put this in our perspective as well and into theirs. That is all I have to say at this time. I will ask if there is any one else, especially members of the Starr Drive Association, if you have other concerns that Larry hasn't spoke to or haven't had a typed memo on, I would be happy to hear about it but we don't need reiterate all the things that we've already heard and seen. We sure are open to you so if you have something to say, please give us your name and give us your concern. My name is Ronnie Marx and my wife Carol Marx is here as well, we are adjoining property owners. Our home is 1663 Starr Drive and we are adjoining property owners. I have met with these other two Commissioners at the last meeting as well. I have a very brief statement, I know this could drag on. Larry Long has expressed our concerns whether or not this large school and church is an appropriate development for our quite residential neighborhood. Carol and I have been visiting with the other adjoining property owners, they too were surprised when we showed them the proposed site plan and explained that St. Joseph's parish has more than 1,000 families and continues to grow. Simple math tells us that this would be a very large church and facility to accommodate. Some of them wanted to be here this morning but could not due to employment commitments. They have asked us to present these signed statements advising the Planning Commission that they oppose this type of development in our residential neighborhood. I'd like to enter those in this file. Thank you. • Page 18 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 19 • Ward: Any one else like to speak to the Committee this morning? Please come forward. Seafritz• I'm Hollis Seafritz and I in Sequoyah Woods. My house backs up right against what I call Joe Fred Starr. As I understand, the County, talking to Sid Norbash with City Engineering, it's been one of my concerns that the children walk in front of the subdivision along Joe Fred Starr and come through my yard because I've elected to let the children come through my yard because on the other side of the road until this property was annexed into the City there were no planned improvements whatsoever. Some of the people that live along Joe Fred Starr their homes are in the County some are in the City and the ones that are in the City when that subdivision was built sidewalks and gutters were required. The same with this project but on the east side of the road. The west side of the road that I live on, if the City does any improvements, hopefully the sidewalk and that .will be all that. I have really no objection of the church. My wife and I disagree on some of that but I have no objection to that. That is the only present time that we can have any improvement to Joe Fred Starr is at this time, with this development. There's nothing else that's going to be done. Some of the problems with the City of Fayetteville is infrastructure which large scale developments affect but maybe we as citizens need to address that more than we are now except when it comes up to something like this. Thank you. Ward: Any one else like to address us? Have a concerned citizen? Go ahead sir. Anderson. I'm Greg Anderson. I've got several interests in this project. I live down off of Starr Drive about two miles south of 45 so I use that road every day. I am also a member of the parish and I'm also the mechanical and electrical consulting engineer on this project so like I said I have several interests. Just a couple of points I would like to make right quick. When I first found out about the project going in out there, my first reaction was that finally we get to widen Starr Road because with this land being improved there, something being built I thought well surely it's got to be widened and improved. I know that it looks like the plans aren't finalized for that to happen yet but it looks like the best shot for the people on Starr Road to get that road widened is for something to be built there I'm looking forward to that. The only other thing is that on the parking lot lights, I really don't think those will be a problem because we have shortened the poles. They were compared to the ones at Harp's. The ones at Harp's are much taller poles and bigger lights. These will be a lot smaller. They are designed to where they don't shine except for right on the parking lot. They won't shine out into the neighborhood. • Page 19 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 20 • Ward: Anyone else. Franklin: Everybody keeps looking at me when they say something about the road. The road service is Randy Allen. He's the Street Superintendent. I'm not the guy who's going to build the road. That's Randy Allen with the Street Department. I just wanted to make that clear. I do have an appointment at 10:00 with Mr. Venable at the Dan Walker Park about some safety concerns with fall softball and the kids so if anybody has any other traffic questions they want to ask me I appreciate if we could do that. Do we need to wait until after public comment? Ward: Let's see if there is any other public comment real quick. Lathan: My name is Adel Lathan. I too have several interests, I am a parishioner, I have lived out on Starr Drive in the Barrington Subdivision for over twenty years. I also own a lot down the street on Camas Mountain and we enjoy living out there. The roads are a problem and I think that is the biggest concern for the neighborhood. There is more than one entrance in and out of there. In fact, we rarely go out through Starr Drive and 45. We go the other direction. We go out Starr, my kids go that way to the high school. In fact, I come out and turn and go up over Zion to avoid that entire intersection. We go through Sequoia Woods. We rarely go the route you are talking about for that reason, even before this middle school opened up. I'm in favor of the project but I had concerns and I've expressed those to the people at church. Same thing with landscaping, I'm a tree hugger, I want to see all the trees and green space too, lighting and also the road improvements and I think they have done what they can to improve those issues. Like Larry said, I'm here with a lot of friends and I've lived there a long time but I think this is a good project and would like to see it go through. C.Marx: I'm Carol Marx. My main concern with the developments on this project... I have the utmost respect for St. Joseph's Church and School. They have a wonderful reputation. It's just basically whether or not this is an appropriate site for such a large scale development. Looking at activity, there activities begin at 6:15 a.m., if you look at their schedule they go well to 9:00 p.m. almost every day of the week. We are in a quite residential neighborhood. The traffic would be a constant coming and going basically. That concerns me more than anything. To me this is a highly active on a substandard lot and substandard road and I don't think that it can support what the church activity has. I think it will be difficult for the parishioners as well. As far as an asset to the neighborhood, I know that past years, there is a couple homes that have been up for sale, people have stopped • Page 20 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 21 and talked to me about what the neighborhood is like. One person stopped and said "You know, I love that house but if 1 have to try to get out on 45, I won't buy it because of that. Because of the traffic and the difficulty of it." It is going to hurt the neighborhood. Not anything against the school or the church, I just don't feel this is the proper site for such a large scale high -activity area. Keating: My name is Stella Keating and I live on Sutton Street. Sutton Street is right behind St. Joseph's. It's a side street. Any traffic we do get there, substantial traffic, is due to the school. It has never been a problem. Peak hours between 7:30 a.m. and 8:00 a.m. when I'm trying to get kids to other schools, I've always gotten out of the house, no problem. I have no curbs, no guttering. I don't think there has any improvement on Sutton Street in a long time. There are sidewalks further down but not on my property. No problem. Property values, we built our house thirteen years ago, we have sold it, we doubled our investment. I have a substantial investment on a new house, also on Sutton Street and I don't have any fears. I would love that school to stay there. My children learned how to ride their bikes in their parking lot because it's a nice paved, flat surface. They played on the playground, shot baskets because there is a basketball court there. It's Just a great facility. It's like having a park without having to pay for it. I guess that's about it. Wright: Hi. My name is Wyatt Wright. I'm a neighbor of Stella's. I live at the 346 North Walnut. I live at the corner of Walnut and Sutton, my driveway is approximately sixty feet from the only exit for the St. Joseph facility. I also work at home frequently so I'm there during all times of the day and I have a great understanding of what goes on there. I moved there about thirteen years ago. I came this morning to speak as a neighbor to the potential neighbors for these folks. As a neighbor, we have seen no problems with the school facility that's being addressed this morning. There is two peaks of traffic that everyone is talking about, in the morning and at the end of school. The numbers that were mentioned here 30 to 40 cars seems to be true, from my observation. The streets of my neighborhood are very tiny. I would think comparable to the this street we are talking about here. I have no difficulty getting out of my driveway. The impact, if there is any, is the church traffic problem. It does fill our neighborhood up and makes the very small street even much smaller. Our streets become one- way streets because of the growing church. That won't be an issue at this new facility. To me the traffic is not a serious issue. There is a certain amount of staggering that seems to go on because of the after school program. The use of the term high -activity, for the church itself, Just doesn't seem appropriate from my • Page 21 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 22 experience. The groups that seem to meet there are real modest in size and spread out over all kinds of hours. I walk my dogs in the neighborhood three times a day. You hardly know that the folks are there except for the little cluster of cars inside of the parking lot. There is no impact in the neighborhood. The noise of the school is not a factor. As I mentioned, I live very close. Our neighborhood has a much higher density than this new neighborhood. It's an old historic district, the houses are very close. They back right up against the St. Joseph facility. Yet I think, in general, we feel that these folks have been very good neighbors and really not an impact in the neighborhood. Certainly, as Stella Keating mentioned, there have been no serious issues with property values If anything our taxes have gone up astronomically. The evening activities are very modest. There is no traffic impact or noise impact that I can discern in the evenings. I would like to, as a present neighbor, I frankly would be happyy if these guys will stay in our neighborhood. We do have a parking problem but other than that these guys have been great neighbors. I wonder what that eighteen acres of land would become if there wasn't a church or school there. I wonder, if they build houses, if that wouldn't have a very strong impact for that neighborhood. There may be issues that need to be dealt with but I think they will be dealt with one way or the other. As far as a church and school, I don't see that as something this neighborhood needs to be afraid of. Adelman: I'm Teeda Adelman. I live across the street from the proposed. I'm an educator, I've been a educator all of my professional life. The only thing that I really want to point out is, I have a child that goes to Vandergriff and hopefully will go McNair. Those two schools, McNair pulling half of the middle school children in Fayetteville, Holt pulling in the other half and both of them being feeder schools from other parts of our area Jefferson is a feeder school so they come from a far proximity. Those two school which have 1200-1300 students combined every day are within walking distance of this proposed other school. The plans as they are now also have plans for expansion. The other outlets that I am aware of are to go through Barrington Park or through other neighborhoods where there are multitudes of children who walk to school and walk home from school. I don't let my child walk home, ride a bus either way and neither do my neighbors, because of the traffic. I was born, raised and educated Catholic. I think Catholic schools are absolutely incredible and wonderful but it also brings in other people that are not necessarily from our neighborhood or from our community area. With the addition of neighborhoods that are going out further out 45, as in Polo and Riverland and all those other that continues to add traffic that comes up and continues to add other children and buses that will also, over the next few years • Page 22 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 23 • continue to add to that. I know that McNair is full and they have had to move children to other schools and we will continue to need many more schools. Our expansion out that direction is huge. Stevens: My name is Angela Stevens and I live on Sutton Street also. I'm a neighbor of the Keaton's and the Wright's and St. Joseph's. I grew up in Richmond, Virginia in a little neighborhood with a wonderful parish. When I was moving here I wanted to raise my children in the same kind of atmosphere so when I found my home, I picked it because it was in the vicinity of St. Joseph's. It was a wonderful environment for them to be in a neighborhood and I could give them something wonderful that had happened from my past. I think that people will come and buy homes out there because St. Joseph's is there. There will be Catholic families who want to be near it. As more people move into our area and they look around the town and say "Where do I want to live in Fayetteville?" They are going to be happy there is a church because we are Catholics and want our children going to the school. I don't think it's just going to be people from out of the neighborhood, they will over time live there. I hate to see St. Joseph's go because it takes my little dream of living in that neighborhood and takes it away. I understand the need for our church to go into a new area It's wonderful living next to St. Joseph's. I feel like any one who would have the opportunity would have the blessing of the schools, people, families and children are great. Morrison. My name is Keith Morrison and I just sold one house on Huntington so I've been a member of the Starr Drive Association for six years. We are living in Sequoia Woods now while we build a house on Camas Mountain we will go further out. I use the same roads that we talked about, all day every day. I'm in favor of this project for several reasons. My children do go to St. Joseph's and we have elected to build in the area because of their presence there. Even before I had children or thought that they would be going to the Catholic School because we are not members of the parish, we knew of the plans for St. Joseph's to go in there. I truly think it will not have a negative effect on the traffic patterns which everyone acknowledges is bad in that whole area of town but I think this is one way we can actually help the neighborhood because it's going to cause some upgrading on adjacent roads and I think, as someone mentioned earlier, it's a fine neighborhood enhancing alternative to another subdivision which to me is a much higher and Tess desirable use than a school and parkway. Land: My name is Jane Land. I just want to ask a question. So far, I think I understand, only part of Starr Drive is going to be improved. It's going to be right in front of • Page 23 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 24 • the school. Is all of Starr Drive going to be improved or just right in front of the school? Right now if you drive down Starr Dnve, you are constantly zig-zagging across the road from narrow to wide, from narrow to wide. The entrance to the school is going to be nght out our driveway. What's going to happen to Starr Drive? Conklin: The City, at minimum, is recommending that they improve Starr Drive to the north. This will be a condition of approval. In order for them, if this project gets approved, they will have to build Starr Drive to at least County standards What we talked about was, talking with the property owner to the north, possibly having him annex into the City and also looking at doing a cost share with St. Joseph's to bring that up to our City Street Standards. At minimum, we are looking at in front of the school, widening that street out fourteen feet from center line with curb, gutter, storm drainage and sidewalks. At minimum, north of the church property, to I believe Madison Avenue Subdivision at least a twenty foot pavement section and in most cases it's about twenty-two to twenty-nine would be the width of the pavement with shoulders. That's the minimum. Then we are looking at the potential of doing a City project with them to bring that up to City Street Standards. To answer your question, when we talk about recommendations and we have been talking about this for six to eight years, this project, any approval they will be required to do those improvements. How we guarantee that is we require that before they get a building permit they have to give us money to put into an account, they give us a letter of credit - we will walk over to the bank if they don't do it - we get the money and we go do it, or they construct it ahead of time. We have methods to guarantee this, it's not Just something we talk about Land: Basically, it's just going to be in front of the school is where the street is going to be widened and sidewalk on the school side. Conklin: Yes. Not on the other side. We haven't taken that to City Council either yet on the City's cost share portion. I'm not sure if the Council will want to put a sidewalk there or not. Land: Right now when we get an oncoming car, we hit the ditch on the side that the school is going to be on. That's not a school bus, that's just another car. God help you if you are not looking because sometimes you wish the tree wasn't there. That's the biggest problem is the road. That's the City and the County's... Conklin: The issues always been, the city limit line is not the center of the road. It is the • Page 24 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 25 back of the fences in Sequoyah Woods. It's completely a county road at that location. I think, I don't have the full history, I'm sure Larry Long or someone has on this but that's been the issue of using the city taxpayers dollars for a county road project. They annexed in so we got this piece from the City. Possibly looking at if we can annex that in up north at least to justify, this is all in the City now, we are not spending taxpayers dollars to improve a County road. Unfortunately our city limit lines, as you know, you go down Starr Road and you are in City at one point then County and you go back around and you're heading back east and you end up part back in the City. That's always been an issue. With this project, we are trying to work that out. At minimum, as staff, what we are recommending, we only make a recommendation it's the Planning Commission that will make the final decision, at minimum it has to at least meet the County Standards of twenty feet with swales on each side. They are showing more than twenty feet in most locations north of the school for a widening and then the City is going to look at doing some type of cost share. That's what we talked about with their consultant was to come up with those dollar amounts of the difference between that County Standard section and the City Standard section for Starr Drive in front of the school and Starr Drive north of the school of Madison Avenue. Just for clarification we are not talking about Starr Drive south of this property. Just north of this property. L Long: What about turning lanes. Conklin: Staff did not make a recommendation for a turn lane at this location. Ward: Any last comments? N.Long: My name is Nancy Long. I live on Starr Drive. I just want to say, we have always appreciated the openness and the discussions between the St. Joseph's Church and Starr Drive. I just don't want anything to come between us and that we always have an open discussion, no matter what happens. I just want to make sure. We learn a lot from each other and we have to work together and we want to work together. Ward: With that, I'm going to close it to the public and bring it back to the Committee. It looks like one of the main Conditional Uses we have to look at is the parking lot. They are requesting 281 spaces. Tom, kind of give us an idea of why you feel like this is a desirable number. I'm sure you are kind of paranoid now with the location where you are at. Parking along the streets and on and on and on. • Page 25 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 26 Hennllee: The conditions that we are in right now over on Lafayette Street are well documented. I'm sure the police log has several entries every Sunday about people blocking driveways and that type of thing. We are a little gun shy of spending this kind of money on a project that will have inadequate parking. That was one of our major goals when we set out. While I'm on that, let me just address an item that was brought up, we didn't just purchase this eighteen acres and throw these out here without any thought. We've spent two years and who knows how many meetings, how many hours of time that all the parishioners have put in input for the entire parish in coming up with the design that we have right now. I kind of take issue with the fact that maybe we did this without too much thought or it's impact. For parking, the last thing I want to do is to sit here and tell you that we are not going to impact Starr Drive and then to have traffic parked on Starr Drive on Sunday morning or during a school assembly or something like that. We feel that the number of parking places that have been shown on here and that we are willing to build, we will make sure that that doesn't happen. Bunch: On August 31, 2000, meeting which I guess is today... Edwards. It should say August 3, 2000. Bunch: It is being reduced from the request of 306 spaces to a request for 281. Hennllee: Correct. Primarily that was an attempt in addition to your question on the number of parking spaces that was an attempt to try and screen. When you have this many parking places there is just so much you can do to disguise the fact that it's a huge parking. We have with the berm, the landscape architect has done a pretty good job. Looking at the landscape plan, I tried to interject a few lines of sight that somebody would have coming down Starr Drive towards this property. There's virtually no lines of site other than a split second of time that you might catch out of the corner of your eye where you will pick up the fact that there is a parking lot of this size right off the side of the road. R.Marx: Keep in mind we live across the street. We will see it all the time. Hennllee: The size of these trees that are screening the south boundary here with the pine trees that are proposed to be put in here, which is in addition since the last meeting, we feel will virtually seclude this site from the Marx's house. The only house that I could envision this impacting would be the houses directly across the street from these entrances Anybody who's looking at this site on an angle won't • Page 26 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 27 see anything. Hoover: How high is that berm? Hennllee: The berm is, I think at it's highest point is 4 to 5 foot and a minimum of 3 feet. Hoover: Also, on the parking issue about how many spaces will you be utilizing during the week? Warren: During school times? Hoover. Yes. Warren: Approximately 80 to 90 because the church employees will be working as well as school employees. We have about 27 teachers on staff, about 8 to 10 church employees and then they have this additional parking from people coming in to visit and what have you. I would guess at the maximum 80. • Conklin: I just to want to clarify. On you berm, looking at the grading plan in detail, we are going downhill right? Hennllee: Yes. Conklin: When you say three feet is that three feet compared to the sidewalk? Hennllee: It's from street level. The actual grade would be that a driver's eye height would be about 3.25 feet off the ground so a minimum of a three foot berm and then you have these plantings on top of that. 1 think it would adequately screen the view of that site from anybody driving down the road. Of course you get a sport utility vehicle or something like that higher off the ground. You are talking about a pretty high berm with some large pine trees planted on top of them. Conklin: Yes. I get one of those tree elevations on top of the street elevations on top of the berm elevation. What's the difference there? Phillips: Roughly three feet in most cases. Conklin: Above the street elevations? • Page 27 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 28 Phillips: Right. Conklin: Just want to clarify that. Hoover: The three feet at the lowest point is from the street? Conklin: That street elevation, you are saying that the lowest point is about three feet above this elevation. Is that correct? Hennllee: Correct. That would be if you were just assuming. Hoover: Does it have the street on there? Hennllee: It does have a section of Starr Drive here with the berm that would be put in. Just a section of it. We don't have the entire site... This would be Starr Drive north this direction. Then you have the scale on the topo. Conklin: Should be 68. Right? Hennllee: I believe it's 86 feet. It's 86 feet from the curb, the proposed curb to the curb on the parking lot. Hoover: So the sidewalk is going through here. Hennllee: Right. There will be a sidewalk coming through. The sidewalk is actually directly in front of this row. Conklin: Tom? The retaining wall for the playground area, how tall is that? How low will the children be in that? Hennllee: Six feet, roughly. Conklin: Six feet below? Hennllee: Right. That's a K through 2 playground. We try to keep them separate from the upper grades on the playground. We did check into that when Mr. Long brought up the fact the State Department of Education recommended a certain size. They don't. They have no recommendation for that. There's a letter included there. • Page 28 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 29 Ward: Tom? Why don't you give us a brief overview of the designs of the building itself. Jackson: The building is a single story building on the western two-thirds, if I can use that as a generality. It is a integral color split faced block veneer waynescoat below the window, which is an earth tone brown in it's present rendition. Above that is a EFIS, a material I think you are probably familiar with. Dry-vit is the common name. That's the manufacturer's name that seems to have captured the market. The roof is a standing seem architectural metal roof which is a colored roof. When you get past the entrance to the school and past the large assembly area, then the school becomes two stories separated by a retaining wall around the parking lot. The materials stay the same all the way around the building, end, front, sides, they are all as I have described them to you. My name is Gary Jackson. Ward: The colors? Jackson: I don't know that the colors have been totally signed off on by the school and normally they would not be at this point and time. The colors that are on the model are suggestions. The school building committee has not acted on those but normally they would not until some time in the construction process when we begin to order materials. Conklin: Actually, those need to be tied down now. Jackson: The committee can do that at any time. We just have not asked them to. Hennllee: Would that need to be prior to Planning Commission? Conklin: Yes. So when we go out there eighteen months from now, we know it has a green roof and not black one. Ward: Any other concerns about the Commercial Design Standards? We are not approving or disapproving we are just kind of going through the list right now. The next thing we need to talk a little bit about is the request for a variance from the maximum twenty-four foot parking lot aisle and dnveway widths allowed by code. The applicant is proposing two twenty-six foot driveways connecting to two twenty-six aisles. Tom, please address us on this. • Page 29 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 30 Hennllee: Cory? Do you want to address that? Twenty-six foot aisles rather than twenty- four. Phillips: The requirement is twenty-four feet and we have maintained that in the interior parking aisles. The twenty-six foot on the ingress and egress aisles, three of them, are to allow for a little extra room to accommodate children being let out and people to pull up. They are going to have cars stack in and around the parking lot. Run them up in a certain fashion to allow the kids to get out. That's our reason for widening the roads two feet. Conklin: Cory, are the stacking cars going to come through this north? Phillips: Tim, I'm not sure. Paula? Thiessen: We have a traffic plan right now where we load five cars at a time. Out there we will probably be able to load more at a time because the parking lot will be longer. All the teachers are on duty and they open the car doors and put the children in. We do have two dismissal times. What we do right now is the cars drop one way. We would do that out there, we would go the long way through the parking so they can snake the cars. Hennllee: Do you have an idea of the number of cars that, right before three o'clock are waiting to be allowed into the parking lot? Do you have an idea on the number of cars that would be lined up at any particular time? Thiessen: We count about 35 in that first pick-up. There might be about 40 in the second pick-up. They will all be able to fit in that parking lot easy In the new parking lot. Ward: Do you have any delivery trucks, things like that coming in? Hennllee: Sisco. Thiessen: I spoke with Mrs. Clark, our cafeteria lady and she doesn't have any eighteen wheelers at all They are all small sized trucks. The largest would be Sisco that comes once a week Bread and pizza is delivered once a week. The milk man comes every other day and he comes early in the morning before any one is there. There are no deliveries during peak traffic hours or rush hour. Page 30 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 31 Hennllee: This delivery area in the back by the cafeteria was designed... That's a standard residential street cul-de-sac size turnaround which was dictated by the Solid Waste Division so they could get their dumpster truck in there which is, as you can imagine, delivery trucks would not have a problem compared to the size of a dumpster truck. There's plenty of room for that type of access. Conklin: What kind of screening are you going to have around this area. Can you go over that again? Hennllee: As far as planted screening, on the landscape plan, the utilitarian portion of the school on the southwest comer of the school is screened by about 15 Japanese black pines. Warren: In addition to the trees that are already on the south side. Hennllee: They will kind of fill in under the canopy of that 30 inch oak. The two 30 inch oaks and the 26 inch oak that are already there as well as the maples that are planted on the other side of the entrances and this maiden grass, this ornamental grass that they will put in is pretty view obscuring. Bunch: What are those Japanese black pines like in maturity and how long does it take to get there? How tall do they get, how big of a canopy before we can look at it being utilized as shielding. Hennllee• I would have to check on that and get back with you. This plan was laid out by a landscape architect so I would assume, of course that's an assumption, that they took into account the height of these trees, planting them underneath those oaks. I don't know if they took that into account. Warren: They are starting off at 2 inch trunks. Hennllee: About 20 foot trip line. Conklin: Is this area at grade with the street or are you going down hill? Hennllee: It's going down hill. Conklin: Is there a retaining wall on the south side9 • Page 31 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 32 • Hennllee: No. There's not. Well yes there is at a portion of the back side of the school it tapers down to the second grade. Conklin: So the vehicles will be visible, except for the screening? Hennllee: Except for the screening. Right. I think the City does have a requirement for a fence around the dumpster additionally so that will obviously be there in addition to this planted screen. Warren: Part of the reason for having this back behind here is because this is a hybrid facility that has both liturgical and educational functions. It is conceivable as tomorrow will happen at 10:00 a.m. there will be a funeral in the church. So the funeral access to the sanctuary space is in this area. So we will be parking along these areas and bringing in the casket through these back doors. Rather than coming in this side on the front. It's also a multiple reason for putting that extra back here. Ward: You have any questions about the twenty-six foot driveway? Tim, tell us again a little bit about this right-of-way dedication that we are not asking for on the Arapaho Dnve. I'm not sure what we are talking about Hennllee: There is a stub -out from Barrington Park Subdivision, up here. Conklin: This is Barrington Park Phase II. There is a stub -out at this location which is on the northeast comer. Barrington Park has a loop street that comes back down. They are required to have two stub -outs. The one stub -out to Madison Drive which the City did a cost share and did get that street connected over to Starr Drive through Madison Avenue complete so they do have that connection already. They talked with me ahead of time, about this and what I would be recommending, because it was very important to the church, their indication was as you heard that it would be very difficult and expensive to come across I did look at it and that's my rationale that I stated earlier was, this project is not going to eliminate future connection to this street. In my opinion, when we do a stub - out, is connect to new subdivisions to provide access and circulation and not necessarily bnng it all the way out to Starr Road. If the Stanbury property develops that there will be an opportunity for a connection through there. My recommendation is not to require any type of dedication or right-of-way or street extension to Starr Road up to Barrington with regard to that stub -out. 11111 Page 32 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 33 Hoover: Can I ask some questions about connectivity, just in general? I was trying to compare this to maybe a subdivision, if we had a subdivision coming through and how many homes we would have. It looks to me if this were a subdivision we would have two ways in and out. I don't know our rules on the subdivision, how many lots you can have before you need more connections and two ways. Conklin: Our Street Standards, we only allow a cul-de-sac or dead-end street to be 500 feet. That pretty much requires another way in and out also that's a smaller street standard we have when we go that twenty-six foot street. Typically, a tract of land this size, we would be looking at two ways in and out and possibly, depending on how they lay it out, to stub it out or dedicate right-of-way. Once again, this is not a subdivision, it's a church and school and they are not trying to build a street and street frontage for each lot for each home. They have the frontage and they have access to Starr Drive. My concern was, I wanted to bring this to your attention that I was not ignoring Arapaho Drive up here because we fought to get that stub -out up there for future development to tie into. In my opinion, if that future development does occur, it still can be tied into through the Stanbury's property or even if the church decided to sell this off and come back down here with a small cul-de-sac or something but there is still access to that stub -out. I didn't see the need or why this would need a city street connection all the way to Starr Drive because a church is being built at this location. That's what I looked at. Ward: The main thing is that it would be difficult trying to go across that creek. Conklin: Yes. That's going to be difficult. I would rather see us get the improvements to Starr Drive and improve Starr Drive versus requiring a street to be built. You are not selling lots off to recoup your costs or anything on that to provide access over to Barrington. Hoover: I'm trying to prioritize my issues here. It seems like the biggest one is the neighbors. I understand this is traffic at 45 and 265. Then I'm thinking what are the other routes and if it were a subdivision or a commercial development, what would we be suggesting? Conklin: That's a good point with regard to you have a difficult decision to make on the Conditional Use. I look at it as a single-family home generates about 10 trips a day. That's on an average. Look at the ITE rates. If you did have a subdivision or any future development east of Highway 265, it's going to generate traffic. • Page 33 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 34 What I observed yesterday and I'm sure the neighbors living out there have a lot more observations and opinions on that but, everybody is trying to get out at the same time to get to work at 8 o'clock. By 8 o'clock there was free-flow traffic out there. That's one of the reasons why I put that statement in here and we have talked with the church and we have talked with Perry Franklin about this, is doing a different time for these children to go to school here. Here's one opportunity that, with this development, you can place a condition on there that they can't open until 8:15 or 8:30, whatever they time that's decided on. Trying to augment that peak flow and avoid that intersection. Right now, I think it would be difficult to get your children to this facility at the same time as children going to Vandergriff, just from what I've observed out there. 1 think everybody is aware of that. Everybody is going to be sitting in traffic, trying to get out here. Here's an opportunity to augment that. Now if it was a single family home subdivision, I think that's going to add more traffic at that peak hour because in Fayetteville or Northwest Arkansas, at this time most people start work at 8:00 and try to get their children to school. Hoover: But going back to, you are saying starting classes at a different time other than peak time. Is that under the Conditions of Approval? Conklin: Once again, we are going to have a separate staff report with a Conditional Use. This is the Large Scale Development. Thiessen: We can adjust our times to be different than the Fayetteville public schools. Conklin: We are going to have a Conditional Use public hearing action and depending on that action, if it's approved, then we will hear the Large Scale, if it's denied, their only recourse is to file suit against the City of Fayetteville Planning Commission in Circuit Court. There's not going to be a public hearing and decision on the Large Scale Development because you can't have a Large Scale Development without the Conditional Use. I've had this conversation with our City Attorney's office and they are in agreement with my interpretation of the code. I normally don't go through all that analysis on Conditional Uses and Large Scales and appeals but since there is so much interest in this one I wanted to clarify for the church and the applicants and the Starr Drive Association what the appeal procedures are. So at Planning Commission we are going to look at the Conditional Use which it's hard to separate. That's why I have always recommended churches do their site plan because how do you talk about traffic circulation and building placement and location of utilities without a site plan • Page 34 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 35 You need a site plan. The best way to do a site plan is through the Large Scale Development process so we will have the Conditional Use first which you have to discuss all that to approve it. Your action will be the Conditional Use first. I'm sure we will be discussing everything about the site plan. We are not approving a Large Scale Development or denying a Large Scale Development until this gets approved then you will have to make another motion to approve or deny this. Hoover: The Conditional Use, will that be all in one grouping or will we do that individually? Conklin: I'm going to have a separate item as a Conditional Use on the agenda so it's clear. Hoover: Each Conditional Use. That will all be together? Conklin: I'm going to lump them together with the school and the church. Hoover: Are you saying that under this Conditional Use that we are going to be looking at, that's going to be one of the items about the time of day? • Conklin: Yes. Hoover: Okay. This is not the full list? • Conklin: No. Hoover: Oh! Conklin: This is a review of compliance with standards, Large Scale Development standards. I put that statement as number one and I handed out the Conditional Use criteria to make sure that as we discuss this that if there is a concern with that criteria we need to let them know and we need to get that changed. Hoover: Is the street improvements supposed to be under the Conditions of Approval? Edwards- It is. Conklin. It is. Number four. Hoover: Are you going to make a recommendation? It will have more than like this? Page 35 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 36 Conklin: Yes. Marx: May I ask a question? You mentioned the St. Joseph's appeal process, is there one in place for the neighborhood or do we have to go to the court as well? Conklin: On a Conditional Use? Marx: If they got approval. Conklin: Yes. If the Conditional Use gets approved, appeal of that is to the court. With regard if they approve a Conditional Use, I hate to predict what they are going to do, I think they would approve the Large Scale Development plan. In that case, the City Council can hear that appeal of the Large Scale Development. Preliminary Plat, Large Scale Development, owners of record or any member of the City Council may appeal the decision to deny or approve a Preliminary Subdivision Plat or Large Scale Development. The owner of record of the development or you can go to an Alderman or the neighborhood can get them to appeal. Marx: That's appeals to the City Council? Conklin: That's to the City Council. The appeal of Planning Commission decision to the City Council. With regard to the appeal of a Conditional Use, there is no appeal, and the State has an ordinance that it goes to the Circuit Court. Hoover: I'm really confused but I think I've got it. Conklin: There's two parts. I'm trying to separate it for you. Hoover: I did have one question though to understand the number of enrollment. Thiessen: Our current enrollment is 289 1 am on the committee for the regional high school and we are not considering an eighth grade at this site. We are considering 8 through 12 at the propose junior high/high school. I'm on that committee also. Hoover: I'm trying to understand at 289 and you're saying how many trips are there a day? You have enrolled 289 students? Thiessen: Correct. 214 families enrolled. • Page 36 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 37 Warren: We don't count trips we count cars. In the morning they have drop-off which is Just people driving in, there's no scheduled time to drop-off, they just at their convenience they drop-off. 124 cars come through at that point in time. Thiessen: We have people who start arriving a little before 7:30. We open the doors at 7:30 and they wait in the cafetena from 7:30 to 7:45 and the classrooms open up between 7:45 and 8:00 which would be our busiest time. In the afternoon we have two dismissal times. We dismiss half of our student body at 3:00 and the second half of our student body at 3:15. This proposed building has two classrooms per grade level, the same as our current site. In fact, for the regional junior high/high school proposal they are even looking at moving 6 and 7, middle school grades, out possibly with that. We could end up being K through 5. Bunch: Do you have the map showing where the families are from? Thiessen: Yes. Bunch: Can you hold that up so I can see it? Thiessen: Some of our families could use Wyman Road. They could also use Zion. Bunch: That's what I'm having trouble with is everybody is focusing on 45. Comments have been made that there is only one way in and out and there is more than that. I went through there this morning during peak traffic period and I came out down on Starr Road on the Wyman Road and came down and cut across Stonebridge. I was looking at how many of the families live out in this area south that would be using that. Comments have been made when we are looking at these traffic patterns and enrollment that everything is going to focus on 45. I think that is misleading and if people are looking at it from that standpoint and it could create a horror story. Just like the closest fire station is over on 265 and they could either go 45 or they could go Wyman Road. Warren: Or they could cut across through Sequoyah, through the subdivision. I don't think they would for faster travel but there is a way to get off of 265 at Pointer Road and then you come on Hunter's Ridge and then cut through on Cherokee and you come out on Starr Drive. You can also come here to Madison and cut through to Fox Hunter and come out on 45 on Fox Hunter and not go to the Stan Drive/45 exit. • Page 37 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 38 • Thiessen: There's another one farther north from Fox Hunter to the back way. I know the back way. Bunch: This part of the County, that goes right in with emergency services and traffic patterns and that sort of thing. Now that we understand that there is another access other than 45. Round Mountain Fire Station is out here. Warren: Goshen, Sun's Chapel Station at Goshen. Bunch: The Fayetteville Fire Station is right in this area. I wondered how much of this would be covered by the volunteer fire departments. Warren: Being in the City? Bunch: I'm looking at the impacts of the traffic. One of the neighborhood's concerns was that everything is bottled up on 45 and Wyman Road has been completely dismissed. I had to drive through there just to make sure it was still there. From what I heard this morning I wouldn't think it was feasible. I'm looking at where the fire stations, police protection, county and city, since this area is combined, I wanted to get a distorted view of this. I want to see where the fire protection comes from, where the ambulance service comes from. I made a conscious decision, I went out to look at another site early this morning and when I went by the public schools at 7:30 there was about 2 cars in the parking lot. Everybody apparently had the same idea on timing. As I came back through, this place was a big fumble. I turned down Starr Road and came down to look at this site because one of the things I wanted to see was what kind of traffic was on the southern side of it in the morning and it was almost nothing. I got down to Wyman Road and nothing was on that road. I got down to 16 in the 265 area, most of it was on 16, it was on Huntsville Road. Ward: We can discuss traffic for the next twenty years. Bunch: I've always understand how we are looking at safety, at access and that sort of thing. I just wanted to see if that was all there. Warren: Access is probably our biggest problem because we want to make sure we can get our people in and get them out for school and for mass and that's why that site was chosen. • Page 38 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 39 Ward: Don, do you have some other questions for the applicant? Bunch: Just a suggestion on one thing, we looked at an item recently with the City park on the northwest part of town we had a combination recreational facility and parking lot. Conklin: Gary Hampton Park. Bunch: Yes. Where they added parking to an existing school and park facility. I was looking at this thing, it looked like something they might do. Warren: I came to that meeting, I remember it. They went up to almost 400 some spots. Bunch: Being part of the neighborhood is what I was looking at. This is a proposed future basketball court and I'm looking at all this out in here. Warren: Most of the basketball courts are on the parking lot. Hennllee: You can ask any of the neighbors that live around St. Joseph's right now and unless school is in session, kids are not turned away from using the facilities at St. Joseph's. It is just like a park. We are forever seeing kids skateboarding and riding their bikes and playing basketball that don't attend the school or that are not members of the parish. Bunch: Maybe I didn't notice when I was looking at this plan. Are there plans to utilize this parking lot as recreational facilities? Warren: Not at this time. Bunch: No basketball rows put up? Thiessen: We will put basketball nets up. We have some with our 6/7 playground and the 4/5/6 playground is out here. Possibly a softball field. We are going to have different playground areas for the different age groups and they will have different playground equipment and facilities. Hennllee: It may not be a full size basketball court. Bunch: Several half courts. • Page 39 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 40 Warren: We don't have a full size basketball court now. Bunch: I understand that. What's the rationale of having the KJ2 right out next to the road? The K/2 playground? Hennllee: It was one place or the other. We had to separate. This is the end of the building that they are in. Rather than traipsing them through the building to a different playground, it's more convenient. Don't they have more recess? Thiessen: That's the K/2 wing. No. Everybody has one recess and everybody has one P E period. It's better academically and for a number of reasons to keep the older students at one end and the younger students at the other end. This one spills into the hill and there is the upstairs and downstairs you have the 6 and 7. Bunch: Right in there which is right on the road, what sort of protection is there? Hennllee: The retaining wall does swing around the back side of the building here and then tapers down from six foot down to nothing. • Bunch: That protects the kids from the parking lot but what about out here? • Hennllee: There's a six foot drop, this retaining wall here, as well as this landscaped screening. As you can imagine, there is a lot less balls being kicked, the height and the distance and that type of thing from the kindergarten and second graders than there are the sixth graders. The likelihood of anything going out onto Starr Drive is greatly reduced by having the younger ones up here by Starr Drive rather than the older ones. The older ones just need a lot more room to run. Thiessen: Their current playground is right by Lafayette Street now. Jackson: I can give you an example why you won't know this is a playground. At First Baptist Church at the corner of Dickson and College, are you aware there is a preschool playground behind that brick wall? You wouldn't be unless you walked back there and looked at it because. This is similar to what you see there only this one is a little further back than that one is. Conklin: There will be a fence on top of that wall? Hennllee: We are required by ordinance to add a handrail and that type of thing. Page 40 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 41 Conklin: What kind of fence will that be? Hennllee: Just a handrail. Conklin: Just a handrail? Hoover: Like the City puts up? Hennllee: We are required and I think the choices are either galvanized or primed and painted two inch diameter steel. Like on the box culverts along the roads. Ron, is that what is required? Petrie: Maximum spacing between the bars is six inches. Conklin: You might want to consider some other type of fencing. Hennllee: Okay. Hoover: He's just saying the requirement is just the spacing and the height. So other than that it's open to the buyer. Conklin: Let me just say right now, I don't like to see those guard rail type fences. I would think you would want to do some more decorative type fence in front of your church on Starr Road. I'll make that a recommendation. Jackson: I can refer back to the one at Baptist Church. The wall is simply higher than the grading and that's with a cap rail on it. Hennllee: Will that be alright? Conklin: Yes. Hennllee: Something that may be faced with brick or whatever. Conklin: I don't want to see something like Sunbridge on College. Bunch: What's the deal, looking towards the future since these Conditional Uses run with the land and run for a considerable period of time, what about the eighth grade? • Page 41 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 42 • Thiessen: We have no plans to add an eighth grade at this time. Bunch: In other words would the regional school be eight? Thiessen: Eight through twelve is what they are looking at and the possibility of maybe even adding six/seven at that regional site. Bunch: We could on the Conditional Use say that there would be, at no point in time, there would be no eight through twelve. That would help the neighborhood being assured there would not be a need for lighted football fields and Tuesday night and Friday night football games and basketball games and that sort of thing every night of the week. That would be one of the things that we could do is add that condition. Conklin: Yes. Bunch: Eight through twelve would not... It would be cut off at seven. Thiessen: Certainly why we are looking at our regional junior high and high school because if we build one, we want to build it so that we have ample land and we can provide all the things that you can provide at public schools. Bunch: This would limit the activity because there wouldn't be high school students driving themselves and that sort of thing and also limit the numbers of activities as well as numbers of people. Hennllee: Would it be okay if we were willing to agree to limit the grade to something short of a high school? The only reason I bring that up is that if we put this at eight through twelve that spans two different, junior high and high school whereas the parochial school, we don't know what the Diocese of Little Rock parochial school will require us to do. I would hate to hogtie us into not adding an eighth grade when if we would have to come back through to add that. Bunch: You wanted to add an eighth grade so that you would line up with the public schools so the student could attend Fayetteville High? Hennllee: Exactly. I'm not saying that we would do that, I just would rather not have that not an option for us and be locked into. • Page 42 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 43 Warren: Is there a way to appeal a Conditional Use say ten years down the line? You wrote in there eight through twelve and we found out then suddenly Fayetteville middle school went back to the junior high concept. We would want to adjust our grades accordingly. It could be appealed at that time? Conklin: You don't appeal you would reapply. MOTION: Ward: Any other concerns you had before I make a motion? I'm going to go ahead and forward this to the full Planning Commission and make a motion to approve it at this level LSD 00-22.00. I think that the main thing that is going to come up is that we are going to have to make a big decision on is first of all, is whether to do a Conditional Use that even a school and church can be built there, so that would be the number one big thing you have to get across. I think that there is plenty of logic for the amount of parking you have. We have granted the Fayetteville school system more parking because they found out they didn't have enough parking and we definitely do not want the situation you have now which is parking out on Lafayette Street and Sutton Street happening out on Joe Fred Starr Road. I'm all for ample parking for a church/school situation. So we don't get parking other places out on the city streets like that. I don't have any complaints personally with the Commercial Design Standards with the school. I think they look fine. Other Planning members might have other ideals but they will have the right to bring those up at the Large Scale Development for approval or disapproval. Then again, I'm going to go ahead and move for approval of this LSD, do I have a second? Hoover: Do you mean approval? Ward: It's the same as approval we are approving it at this level and forwarding it. Hoover: I'll second to forward it to full Planning Commission. Ward: I think we got a lot accomplished today and I think you all work real well with the Starr Drive Association and a lot of things have been worked out. Bunch: I concur. . Page 43 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 44 • AD 00-30.00: Administrative Item (WRMC, 212) was submitted by Washington Regional Medical Center for property located on Milsap Road. The property is zoned R -O, Residential Office and contains approximately 45.47 acres. The request is for more square footage, an amendment to the conditions of approval for LSD 98-36. Ward: The next item on the agenda today is new business which is AD 00-30.00 which is an Administrative Item for Washington Regional Medical Center. The request is for more square footage, an amendment to the conditions of approval for LSD 98-36. Tim would you go ahead address us on this? Conklin: Yes. Washington Regional Medical Center has requested to add an additional 46,579 square feet. Originally the Planning Commission approved 267,000 square feet. We went back to Planning Commission and got 281,000 approved. Now we are up to a total of 337,875 square feet at this facility. Basically, what's called a fifth floor, there is a garden level and then they start saying one, two, three, four but it's really fifth floor space going to be built at this time. It's going to be a shell space. They are not planning on doing a tenant finish out at this time. I am asking that they pay to the City $3,090 to help go towards a traffic signal at Futrall and Gregg or Appleby and Gregg because of the increase in traffic based on the square footage. I believe they are in agreement with that number. They have already paid us the $15,000 which is in escrow so we will dust need to get that additional money. Parking is okay based how it's calculated. They are within what they need. I recommend approval at this level. We also put on the table at the last Subdivision Committee the issue of having the sidewalk not adjacent to Futrall Drive and they are going to bring that back up into their project. I don't have that drawing in front of me. The issue was is this a controlled access highway and can or can't we put a sidewalk there? They are proposing to take the sidewalk... We talked about actually bringing this out here so it just doesn't drop off into the creek on this west end. Bringing it up along. Futrall drive, come along the pond, back up along the parking lot and drive then back down, instead of having it right here. I have not had a chance to read that letter from the Highway Department. They do have information. I'll let them make that presentation with regard to that sidewalk. Ward: Is there any other staff comments? Ron? Chuck? Rutherford: I'm just here to listen. Ward: Okay. Who's going to talk? • Page 44 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 45 Harris: Al Harris, Craft & Tull Engineers. Kurt from our office has been trying to get a hold of you. Report of the Highway Department doubts if Futrall is a controlled access or not and he's been put off by the Fort Smith District and they said Little Rock Right -of -Way Department. He's been talking to David Harmon down there in the Right -of -Way Department. They still haven't answered the question if this is controlled access or not. They did Kurt a copy of this right-of-way plat and he circled C/A which is controlled access which indicates that a portion of it is controlled access but we still don't know and the Fort Smith office didn't know for sure if the whole entire thing was controlled access or not. At this point, since they won't give us a current letter from the Highway Departments stating this was controlled access. They wouldn't give us a letter yet. Just faxed this drawing. So we are going from the letter and this little drawing that it is considered to be controlled access. Controlled access, we understand, they don't want a piece of sidewalk stuck out there next to the freeway. We don't have a letter, right now, from them stating this. Conklin: Commissioner Estes was trying to clarify that and apparently we still don't have it completely clarified. Chuck, do you have anything? Rutherford: I have a couple concerns from last time. If this is what is accepted and this is what happens, are you planning on making the connection over to Futrall9 Conklin: We talked about Just swinging that back up around. Harris: I don't have trouble doing that but I'm not so sure that it's not contradictory to the controlled access from the. State. Parton: My understanding Chuck that if that is a controlled access portion of 71, we cannot break that fence and come through the fence back on to that right-of-way. In other words, if we build that sidewalk on the hospital's property we cannot come off of their property onto the highway right-of-way unless we do it down here at the intersection of North Hills and Futrall. Harris: We tried this up in Springdale on Highway 412 with the intersection up there at 412 and 71 for Childer's Insurance Building. We won't have a sidewalk on their property and come up to the right-of-way fence and actually have an opening for people to walk across that little ramp on 71. They wouldn't allow us to do that because it's controlled access on that particular. We actually made a request to the Highway Department this went back and they denied that. What we could do Page 45 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 46 here is make a formal request. Conklin: I guess it just doesn't make sense to dead-end the sidewalk to nowhere but if you are saying you can't break the fence. Hams: It's my understanding that they don't want a sidewalk going nowhere so if it could come out and dead-end right there on Futrall and not go anywhere as far as the Highway Department is concerned. Rutherford: Another question, over on Appleby, is this intended to go out and connect to the property line out on Appleby? It shows it just dead -ending back in there. Tenpenny: Hams: Tenpenny: Rutherford: Tenpenny: Ward: Hoover: Conklin: Hoover. Conklin: Rutherford: That was a change that we were showing, wasn't it? Yes, we were just showing it coming in. We are going to bring it to the sidewalk at the property is on that bridge at the curb. We will bring it there to that curb. It needs to be shown that way. Okay. Is there any one else that would like to speak? It's open to the public right now. If you would like to speak for or against this sidewalk. Seeing none I will close it to the public and bring it back to Committee. Is the sidewalk on here? No. It was not on there. That's my fault. You have to look at this as it was tabled and I forgot to get it on the agenda but they do want a decision on that. Why was it tabled before? Because of the controlled access. Commissioner Estes asked for a letter from the Highway Department stating that this is controlled access or not. Page 46 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 47 Tenpenny: Harris: Ward: Tenpenny: Ward: Harris: Conklin: Tenpenny: Conklin: Bunch: Tenpenny: MOTION: Hoover: Bunch: Ward: They wouldn't give us a letter to this date. I asked him to document conversations and that's the best we have along with their maps. We are talking about not only the sidewalk but the additional 6,700 square feet of space adding on. What floor is it going to be on? The fifth floor? Fourth patient floor, fifth total floor. Where would that be located as far as looking at the plans? Right on top. Here's a large elevation. The building footprint is not changing. They are going up. I just want understood that we are shelling in at this time and if we decide to complete it then we don't have to come back? No. Now if you put the sixth floor on there that you designed, your building for it, you would come back just so I can get some more money. This is like Three Sisters, just keep going up and up and up; We can go one more on top. That's as much as we can go. I would like to make a motion we approve AD 00-30.00. Second. I'll concur. Thank you. That also includes the sidewalk. Page 47 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 48 • LSD 00-18.10: Large Scale Development (L&E Equity Investments, LLC, pp 177) was submitted by Steve DeNoon of Jordan & Associates on behalf of Kirk Elsass of L & E Equity Investments, LLC for property located on lots 5 & 6 of Millennium Place. The property is zoned R -O, Residential Office and contains approximately 0.56 acres. The request is to build professional offices. Ward: The third item on the agenda today is LSD 00-18.10: Large Scale Development for L&E Equity Investments. Tim, tell us a little bit about this. Conklin: This is a Large Scale Development located on lots 5 & 6 of Millennium Place. Two buildings 28,210 square feet each. They are sharing a common drive into the parking lot. They are showing dumpster in back on the northwest end of the parking lot. Four inch caliper trees are required along the right-of-way per the covenants of the subdivision. Also, it's more than just he covenants, it's because of the mitigation for tree preservation. Continuous planting of five gallon shrubs are required along the right-of-way to fulfill the reduced setback requirement. They were granted a setback reduction from thirty feet to twenty-five feet and that's by nght in our ordinance. If they don't have any parking between the building and the street, they have to landscape more. Planning Commission determination of compliance with Commercial Design Standards. I put the letter in there from Kirk Elsass on what the design standards are for the development. I believe they are meeting Commercial Design Standards. There is one issue that we don't have in the report and that's with the north setback line, they are currently not meeting it with the building. This detention pond was added and has created a separate lot. I talked with Kirk Elsass and we talked about doing a property line adjustment, moving that line five feet back to the northwest. Would there be any problem doing that? Moving that back over about five feet? Petrie: Conklin: Ward: Five feet will be okay. Five feet will be okay. So that will take care of the setback issue. Really the setback is when it's up against the detention pond not another building. Just wanted to clarify that. That's everything we have. We recommend to forward to the full Planning Commission however, if you feel like you can approve at this level, you are more than welcome to approve it at this level. Chuck? Rutherford: They have made the corrections that I've asked for. • Page 48 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 49 Ward: Okay. Thank you. Ron? Petrie: No comment. Ward: Sara? Edwards. Kim did say that they met her comments also. Ward: Okay. I'll open to the public next. It doesn't look like there is anyone here. Does anyone want to speak to this particular item, Millenium Place. Seeing none, I'll close it to the public and bring it to the applicant. Introduce yourselves and you might give us a little bit of overview of what you are trying to do. Elsass: Kirk Elsass. I'm the part owner of L&E Equity Investments and we are trying to built two 28,000 square foot office buildings and we are trying to get started in Millenium. Ward: Okay. Do you have any problems, Kirk, with the conditions here as far as the four inch caliper trees and so on. Elsass: No In fact, that's going to be something that's going to be emphasized on every lot out there. Ward: I think the main item we have to discuss here is the Commercial Design Standards. Why don't you kind of give us a layout of the building plans that we have here. There may also be signage that we might want to talk about. Elsass: Basically, at this point, we haven't done anything. As far as signage goes, we dust submitted for Millenium itself, it's not just for this particular building but for Millenium itself, we are doing an area sign on the entryways. We are going to do it out of the block similar to what we are using on these buildings and we are going to use black marble granite with some letters just to address that. As far as a sign on this, we don't have anything particular in mind other than we are going to try to match the block and brick together. Other than that we don't have a tenant for this. This is speculative buildings. As far as the design of the building, we are going to be using blocks and the new brick with Basic Construction. They are making concrete brick. It's going to be a real sharper and finer line on the bricks. I've seen some of the buildings done with these and they are real impressive. We are going to do block up under the windows as you can see on the • Page 49 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 50 drawing and we are going to brick up from there and we are going to use, above the windows, either the dry-vit type there or we talked to Basic Construction about putting where we put the little keystone in the center there to design us and make us a brick that would match that. The rest of it is pretty self explanatory. These columns will be coming down the middle right here. I think it's pretty self explanatory. Conklin: The columns, they had columns on the Bradley Large Scale Development. This happens to be the same architect. Bunch: Which of these drawings applies? This is different. DeNoon: The darker terracotta color is the latest drawing that we have. This is the first proposal with the green shingle roof. We decided not to go with the green. Elsass: We are not going to use the green shingle. DeNoon: That's really the only difference. Bunch: As far as the length of the building, the four columns versus three columns. DeNoon. It was shortened due to the utility easement setbacks. Bunch: This is the right one? DeNoon: Yes sir. That's the correct one. Hoover: These buildings are both the same design? Elsass: Yes. What happened here is this design and building, was preliminary. He just used that color and we decided to change the color. What happened with the columns here, as you will notice, is that we had to cut back the size of the building because of this easement back here. We originally had the thing drawn all the way back to get more space. We had 3,300 feet and it ended up being 2,800. Hoover: In the right end is that the side that faces the street? Elsass: Yes. The brick facade and block facade will face the streets. We are just trying to utilize where it's not going to be seen, putting the siding on there. Page 50 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 51 Ward: This rear elevation will be facing kind of northwest? Elsass: There will be one here and of course there is a lot here so there will be a building here. Hoover: The setback over here, how far away will that building be? Conklin: In R-0 it's ten feet. It's difficult to tell what's going to happen on these other lots. How much do you require them to dress those sides up? Bunch: If they don't develop we are looking at vinyl siding, if they do develop we don't see anything? Elsas: That's right. They will develop, because we are going to develop most of these ourselves. The other side of that is vinyl that we are going use is going to be very similar in color. It's not going to be a real bright white or something like that. We are going to blend the colors in to be similar to match. DeNoon: It's more of a gray tone. Hoover: Did we have to get a color board on the last Millenium? Conklin: No. Hoover: Don't we usually? Conklin: Not always. Hoover: It's optional? Conklin: Yes. Elsass: Let me give you a little background. Tim and I have kind of bounced this back and forth and we have worked real hard to come up with something that kind of makes sense. If you look at the Millenium Subdivision, which is on this plat here, you will notice that this is the one we just got through with Perfect Partners. It's very unique compared to the rest of this. This enters on Joyce Street, it never enters in any way into this so it's almost similar to these three. Even though we did blend them together, I went ahead and decided, first of all we had a drainage • Page 51 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 52 issue with this detention pond and the extensive cost and the dirt work so instead of trying to sell that, Lee understands that process more than I do, this stuff through here I felt like would be self-explanatory to the general public so we decided to set a precedent and go ahead and build the first two buildings in here. That's what we are trying to do is set it up where it will be nice here. Then we are planning on building either all the way down through here. I've got this lot sold and these two lots are being looked at right now by some people. Anyway, the bottom line is that as far as design standard, we came up with a color scheme and everything that was required. I feel like, there is a lot of similarities in here and here but really there are some differences, I believe all the remaining lots except this particular one this probably will be one of the most unique, different looking buildings compared to the rest of them. This is more like what I vision for the center. Hoover: I have a problem with the approval because of commercial design. I don't know how you feel about that. The rest of the Commissioners being able to view it. Ward: Personally, I don't have a problem with it, but if you feel like you want to forward it to the full Planning Commission that should be your motion. Hoover: No. Ward: One thing that we might want to think about doing is, I'm kind of like Don and Sharon is this is such a very impressive area out there the Subdivision itself and Joyce Street and everything else that's been built out here, the last thing I want to show out there is vinyl siding to be showing or seen by everybody. That's the one thing that I would have some concern about. Not that I'm in fear all the lots are not going to sell and so on. I just think it might be two years from now before you finally get it sold. Someone might buy a lot now and not develop it for three or four years. I wouldn't want to be looking at this driving down Joyce Street. Conklin: You will see it right now, when these two lots develop. Ward: I don't know if there is something that you could do, some landscaping or something else without having to go ahead and building the same building on the back that you are putting on the front as far as brick and block and all of that thing. Elsass: I've already talked to my builder on this issue, if you feel comfortable with the Page 52 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 53 change on that, I can do that. My deal right now is I just really want to get started. Hoover: If you do that, I have no problem. Elsass: Here's what I'll do. If you'll let me brick and block this one from here all the way around to here and not make me do this one because this one will not be seen. If you will let me do that, I don't have a problem with that. As far as landscaping going through that, I feel like chances of survival is pretty slim there. It's going to be small, it's not going to be any good for that I know we are going to sell it but like you said it may be three years. Ward: You might sell it tomorrow. Elsass: I'm better off with brick. The truth of the matter is we are probably better off with brick on all of it if the economics would work. We'll do that if we can go that way. Hoover: How is it that this one was notgoing to be seen? Elsass: If you will look at the lot layout here, it's not going to be seen. Conklin: It's on more of an angle. Elsass: You are not going to see much of it. Hoover: Except for right now when you are driving right here. Elsass: The grading of the way it sits and there are these lots right here. This one is already sold. You are not going to be able to see it. This one you will see. I agree with that even though this hill is up. Bunch: One of the main reasons we are here anyway, because this is like the third time we looked at this, we looked at the whole thing. Then we looked, knowing it was a special case the one that we just looked at the one that fronts Joyce, I think more of what we are doing here is reconfirming the color schemes and that everything connects and if the Design Standards meet. It's definitely not a boxy building. The main thing we are looking for is recurring themes. • Page 53 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 54 Conklin: Yes. Kirk and I went through that. Hoover: Are you saying recurring theme on this one? Conklin: Is there a recurring theme? I can tell you when we looked at where these columns are Hoover: Does it end up being brick? Conklin. It's dry -vit. I think it looks nice. Bunch: I think that's the main thing we are doing. DeNoon: This has more of a residential character. It's a professional office, it's not a large commercial complex. You are looking at landscape, you are looking at a blending of colors, a mixture of textures. Bunch: We are also looking at one side of the road being commercial and the other side being residential. Conklin: Come up with standards for commercial lots and come up with one for residential. We talked about having these hipped roofs. DeNoon: Look what you approved at Sunbridge. How nice that it This is sort of that scale. Conklin: You are in agreement to do bnck all on this side? Elsass: On the south side of the building. Yes. I'll be glad to do that. I was contemplating doing it anyway just because of the issue that you are all concerned about. I've got a lot of money invested here, I want it to be nice. If I'm going to own most of this, John, David, Lindsey and I had a meeting yesterday and we discussed about doing brick on all of them. To be honest with you we have got to the point where we like to do brick on all of it but you start talking about brick all the way around there it's about another $10,000 investment. Maybe it's better, maybe it's not. Bunch: It will also help you sell the rest of them better. • Page 54 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 55 Elsass: It could. I just know that I've built several buildings in the past, over the last twenty years and built some bricks on back of the buildings and competed with someone down the street that's putting vinyl on the back and I struggled to make it work and they did a lot better. It's economics is what it boils down to. Bunch: My other thing here is that sign trapezoidal? That being five feet and this being four feet? It's about nineteen feet long. That's about the size of your suburban. Big on one end, little on the other end. DeNoon: They exploded that. That's probably more like eight feet. Elsass: I don't want that big of sign on there. That's the first time I've seen that. Bunch: That's a pretty healthy size sign. Ward: Is that one for both? Elsass: One for each of them. Ward: One for each office9 Bunch: That's what is showing here. Elsass: I don't think it needs to be more than about three by six at the most. DeNoon: We could submit that real quick. Ward: Yes. They want us to approve it right now. Put some numbers on there. Put three feet by whatever they want. Elsass: Give them what they want. Three feet tall and five feet wide. That's about a foot and a half on each side. That's about right. Five, three, eight and three Does that sound better. If you look at that drawing there's no way that's nineteen feet. DeNoon: No. They exploded it. We'll go three, two and one and five with four inch letters. Eight feet total. Edwards: What are we doing? • Page 55 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 56 Bunch: That works for us. If you are going to have two of those. Elsass: It's more than I want anyway, because the bigger they are the more they cost. True? Ward: Any other concerns that you have Don or Sharon? MOTION: Hoover: I'll make a motion that we approve LSD 00-18.10 here at Subdivision, subject to the Conditions of Approval in addition to continuing the brick and concrete block on the rear elevation of lot five and subject to the new sized revisions. Bunch: I'll second that. Ward: I'll concur. Thanks Kirk. Elsass: Thank you very much. • Page 56 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 57 • LSD 00-24.00: Large Scale Development (Stephens, pp 212) was submitted by Robert Brown of Development Consultants, Inc. on behalf of Bob East for property located north of Futrall Drive and Wimberly Drive (Lot 9 of CMN Business Park). The property is zoned C-2, Thoroughfare Commercial and contains approximately 1.86 acres. The request is to build professional offices. Ward: The next item on the agenda is LSD 00-24.00. It's a Large Scale Development submitted by Robert Brown on behalf of Bob East for property located north of Futrall Drive and Wimberly Dnve Lot 9 of CMN Business Park. The property is zoned C-2, Thoroughfare Commercial and contains approximately 1.86 acres. The request is to build professional offices. I'll turn it over to Tim first. Conklin: This is a Large Scale Development. I believe it's not Lot 9 of CMN Business Park. That's a mistake. It should be adjacent to. It's actually called preserve tract 2 also known as tract 5 Northwest Medical Park. Originally created in 1990 and subsequently split in 1993 creating two lots. A lot was created prior to our Design Overlay District requirements, also our new Master Street Plan requirements and our Parking Lot Landscaping requirements and Commercial Design Standards. 1 bring that up because, I did exempt them from the Design Overlay District, based on that information, from the twenty-five foot green space requirement. That is the only section of the Overlay District I exempted this development from. This was an existing lot. The sidewalks are already existing and the cross access from Staffmark and from Collier's was already existing. It is very difficult to have that additional right-of-way of thirty-five feet from centerline, a twenty-five foot green space on each side of US 471 and Futrall Dnve to make it all work. That's the justification for the exemption that I did. The project is two parking spaces short of the required minimum. The proposal is for eighty-one spaces. Eighty-three is the minimum required by code. A shared parking agreement has been submitted with Staffmark. I do have the authority, in order to meet landscaping requirements, to reduce the parking by twenty-five percent. This is something I'm comfortable with with regard to the shared parking and the less two spaces. Ward: Do they already have a shared parking agreement? Conklin: They have submitted one with Staffmark. For the record on that one, I guess that's why I'm going back and forth on this is that, I have not done an analysis on Staffmark to see how much parking they need and if they are being shared at the same time which is the cntena. I'm comfortable approving this project with the • Page 57 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 58 two spaces short. Typically, we are arguing that they want more parking spaces, I'm comfortable saying less parking spaces. All utility to include roof mounting must be screened. I just want to make sure that they are aware of that. A periput will need to be high enough to screen all utility equipment on top of the roof and anything on the sides will have to be screened. The dumpster needs to have a minimum of twenty-one foot clearance and it does. Brown: I don't think she was reading the drawing correctly. She's going to the edge of the gutter instead of the basis of the curb. Conklin: Planning Commission determination of compliance with Commercial Design Standards. This is a two story building. The penthouse and elevator is the taller portion. I did make a comment at Technical Plat Review my personal preference would be to have the front of the building go up higher but I don't think that violates any Commercial Design Standards other than me critiquing the architects drawing. I'll let you decide that one. Other Conditions of Approval are standard. Ward: I guess the sidewalks are already here but do you want to talk. to us about it anyway? Rutherford: Like Tim said the sidewalk was built prior to the right-of-way being given to have the ten foot green space so they are plus or minus four feet of green space but the sidewalk is six feet which is the standard for that street. One thing that needs to be removed in your drawing is your gutter line is through the sidewalk. Brown: That's like the back of the curb there? Rutherford: What typically happens when the contractor sees this on here they build that gutter section through there right on through. That cuts down on it. Brown: We'll take that off then. Rutherford: It just starts and stops inside of the sidewalk. Brown: I understand the intent, the sidewalk runs through. Ward: Thanks Chuck. Ron? Petrie: No comment. • Page 58 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 59 Ward: Sara? Edwards: Kim said they have met all the requests. Brown: That's where our spare parking spaces went. Ward: Okay. Bob why don't you go ahead. Brown: My name is Robert Brown and I'm with Development Consultants. We're the civil engineer for the project. This is Matt Pierson who is with Polk, Stanley, Yeary, who is in an office in Fayetteville now and they are the architects in the project. Basically, we have resolved all our issues from Plat Review. The only thing is the things that Tim mentioned are about the same. We have gotten an agreement from the owners of the Staffmark site their for shared parking to fulfill the standard minimum requirements. We have adjusted the dumpster to meet a dimension that fitted what Ms Zotti requested again I think she was kind of misinterpreting the lines as being the edges of the curb or something. Hoover: Where is your dumpster? Brown: Right here. You can see we showed twenty-one foot clearance but in her little note she dimensioned from this point to this point and the closer lines are the actual curb. I spoke to her about that. She originally asked for twenty-four and allowed us to do a little bit less. Anyway, the other standard stuff we know about the permission on Collier's site. Here I worked to accomplish cross access. Matt has contacted these owners and has a meeting scheduled finally with them next Tuesday. Pierson: That building has a POA for the four tenants that are there. I will meeting with those four on Tuesday evening to go over what we are doing. Conklin: They are actually reconstructing this cross access on this property to the west. Brown: Their drive and parking lot was constructed I guess at a time they didn't require near as much setback so it was hard to get the alignment to work without remodeling it. Fortunately, they really have nothing but some grass right over here. Conklin: In my letter dated July 14, 2000, I did ask about the POA Architectural • Page 59 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 60 • Committee. Is this not subject to it or did you go to it already? Brown: Yes. Actually we already have a letter to that affect. Conklin: Okay. I guess I didn't get it. Brown: I think that was the original. I can regenerate it. I didn't generate the letter. Conklin: They improved it? Brown: Yes. I thought I saw it in some of your stuff at Plat Review. It's in one of the attachments. Conklin: Okay. It's dated June 7, 2000, Robert East, 2230 Cottondale Lane, Little Rock, Arkansas. Dear Mr. East. A formal meeting with North Hills Medical Park Architectural Review Committee was held. We have approved the proposed building on the out partial Lots indicated by the elevation drawings that were submitted. Good luck in this construction. Sincerely, James C. Romain, M.D. It has an attachment construction operation reciprocal easement agreement. Sounds like they approved drawing over there? Brown: Yes. Ward: Robert why don't you or someone give us a breakdown of how that building, what kind of brick and colors, scheme and so on. Pierson: Basically we have the red indicates a dark red brick, burgundy colored brick. The banding on the bottom and this band and this band indicate and 8x8 brick of variable color. Above each window, actually the head and the seal, of the windows as well as the coping on top of the building is all precast concrete. This piece here, in relief, Stephens Building graphics is all precast so that really wouldn't read quite that strong, it would be a shadow relief you would see. Then all the windows are a clear anodized metal. Ward: What's in the middle, down below the Stephens part? Pierson: Glass. This is all glass. Directly underneath this canopy that projects out, there are some clear anodized metal panels there. That's all glass there. 1111 Page 60 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 61 Brown: There's glass on the sides of the elevator and stair. Pierson: These are two stair towers, elevator pumps. Ward: Which way will the north elevations be facing, I-540? Conklin: Are you going to see the elevation penthouses, shafts up on top on the north? Pierson: You can see them from behind then you will also see a little bit of the screening. Conklin: Okay. Bunch: What type of material is in back of those elevation shafts on the north side? Pierson. I think at this point we have a metal panel that will probably be similar to this anodized panel here and then we willhave to incorporate that into how we screen the canopy units on top too. We will want that all to close well up there. • Conklin: Is the back of the elevator shaft a metal panel or is it going to be brick like the front on the side of the elevator? • Pierson: It would not be brick back here, it would be a metal panel at this point. Conklin: Could it be brick? Pierson: Sure, it could be. Bunch: Could you have a rendering or something showing us that when we forward this to the Planning Commission so that they have an idea what they are looking at? Pierson: You mean to show that brick? Bunch: Show the whole thing and include that. Pierson: Okay. Yes, we can do that. Conklin: The sides are going to be brick according to these two. Ward: Everything is brick except the north The side of the elevator shafts, is that what Page 61 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 62 you are talking about? Conklin: Yes. That's my only concern when I was looking at it. Ward: Any other questions? Looks like a nice building. Brown: I would like to request, I see here that Tim has recommended going forward to full Planning Commission. We have resolved virtually every issue we had. I would like you, if you could, to consider approval today to help us with our progress and schedule. If you think we can do the brick up there without any physical problems. Pierson: Oh yes, that's not a problem. Brown: I think we can agree to doing that. To address that concern. If you need a revised elevation, I'm sure we can get you one of those back for the record. Ward: Is there any reason we cannot approve it at this level Tim? • Conklin: No. Typically, we sent ones with variances up there but I don't believe the exemption of the Overlay District is a variance, that's by ordinance. The sidewalks were already in and Chuck's agreed to that. The two parking spaces, I have the authority to waive 25% and I'm the one that caused them to lose the parking because I wanted the landscaping in there or Kim did. I think you can go ahead and approve it. Ward: Do we have a motion? MOTION: Hoover: Yes. I'll make a motion to approve at Subdivision level LSD 00-24.00 subject to the conditions with the additional north elevation of the elevator tower be fixed. Bunch: Second. Ward: I'll concur. Conklin: Robert you just didn't want to sit through that Catholic Church did you? • Page 62 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 63 Pierson: We need to get you something that shows that. Ward: I don't think you have to give us anything. I think you are just going to have to do it. If you cannot do it, because of weight or something like that, then you will have to come back to us. Pierson: Sure. Hoover: You just need to get a copy to Tim of that side. Pierson: We'll structure it to where it will handle brick. Edwards: With your permit, could you submit the revised elevation. Brown: I'll say we will just go ahead and get another one just on 11x17 and send you a couple copies of that for the record. Conklin: That's fine. • Page 63 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 64 LS 00-26.00: Lot Split (Schmitt, pp 298) was submitted by Neil Schmitt for property located south of Hwy 45 near Son's Chapel. The property is in the Planning Area and contains approximately 10.81 acres. The request is to split into 4 tracts. 1 93 acres, 1.81 acres, 2 41 acres and 4.66 acres. Ward: The last item on the agenda is LS 00-26.00 for a Lot Split submitted by Neil Schmitt for property located south of Hwy 45 near Son's Chapel. The property is in the Planning Area and contains approximately 10.81 acres. The request is to split into 4 tracts being 1.93 acres, 1.81 acres, 2.41 acres and 4.66 acres. Tim, what can you tell us about this? Conklin: This is a Planning Area subdivision and the four lots, the roads will be twenty feet wide chip and seal. They will also dedicate sixty feet for a right-of-way for a street to meet County Standards. The applicant will have to connect water to the new lots. All right-of-way needs to be dedicated by warranty deed. Proof of Arkansas Department of Health Permit for individual sewage disposal system shall be provided to the Planning Division prior to the lot split being filed. This is one of our growth areas or Planning Area subdivisions. I have been working with the Schmitt's with this and once again, I think you have all heard my speech on how much headache I've had dealing with these issues. There are some issues with regard to what the County is telling the Schmitt's and what I'm telling them. I'm trying to figure out how one private drive is going to serve future development. I kind of changed the way we are doing things and the Schmitt's are kind of in the middle of this too and I understand that. (Before the County would get the plats first, they would approve, how do I want to say this politically correct, they would approve anything. I really have a problem with that because I know what happens in the future and Starr Drive, we can talk about it all day, development after development. They have agreed to do a twenty foot chip and seal on these two sections of the plat. Our standards say you have to have seventy-five feet of frontage on an improved road and I'm not considering what we call Private Road Standards in the County which require a fourteen foot SB2 drive. B.Schmitt: Actually for Tess than five lots they require nothing. For less than ten lots they require fourteen foot gravel. City has their minimum now. Conklin: Yes. So he comes into my office and is telling me "I really don't have to do anything." I'm telling everybody that "No. I'm sorry. I'm not going to make that recommendation to the City Planning Commission." There's a ten foot wide • Page 64 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 65 B.Schmitt: asphalt road that's proposed off-site within a forty foot access easement and then there's a fifty foot street dedication to Washington County and what kind of road? Leading up to Timber Glen Lane is a sixteen foot wide asphalt road that we put in. Then leading up to this fifty foot street dedication we would have, under what you requested, we would do a twenty foot wide chip and seal from that point on. Conklin: Just to show you, you can see how all these are being pieced together. There's no one consistent standard. Sara and I have talked with the County Planner and are really encouraging the County Planner in Washington County to resolve this issue. You look at the County Standards, which Sara and I had to learn so now we have our own City regulations and we are trying to read and interpret the County regulations and a private road standards. Basically, we could go for twenty years and pretty much never had a public street, in my opinion, dedicated or built in our Planning Area. I appreciate the Schmitt's cooperation at least with my recommendation. You will see another one of these that we are working with another developer who is not happy with City Planning's recommendation on these. B.Schmitt: N.Schmitt: I think too, it's important to mention, they have worked with us fully all the way through this. We have basically have just gotten caught in a definition situation. The County, because of the new Planning Director, has decided to send everything through you guys first so you have to have some kind of definition of what you are doing and it just happens to be different then what we have done previously and actually what we had even talked about the City with previously before we started this. We have tried to accommodate everything that they requested in here. It did impact on us financially on what we have to do here. Which is upsetting from the standpoint that we thought we talked to you about it first of all but then I put my engineering hat on and I really agree with what the City is doing. It should have been done thirty years ago. Conklin: One of the things I did agree not to push was making this street connect all the way through to the south. I went out there with Sara and got the car stuck on the hill. I was a little concerned about this steep slope and so I'm not going to make that connect all the way down there. Bunch: This road right here is not one of these, right? • Page 65 Subdivision Committee • August 31, 2000 Page 66 B.Schmitt: No sir. That is the Greenhaw's private drive. If you drive out, you see their little red house sitting on the hillside. Bunch: That's the one that has a no trespassing sign and all that on it. I drove up there this morning and didn't get shot. This one is the one that connects? N.Schmitt: Right there. Bunch: Okay. That's where I was getting lost. That's the one that's the narrow asphalt, freshly Laid asphalt, the weeds between the trees. B.Schmitt: That's right. Bunch: It comes down here and then goes to? B.Schmitt: Then it goes to gravel. Bunch: Then it comes to kind of a T, it looks like there used to be an old road on either side. When it gets to the end of the gravel, it looks like there used to be a road on each side One of them drops down the hill to the left and one of them kind of rolls over to the right. B.Schmitt: Yes. That goes to the Greenhaw's property. Bunch: Might take a four wheeler or motorcycle down them. I didn't go far enough to come down this one. That's where I was getting lost trying to figure out how all this stuff connected up. B.Schmitt: There's another tie in right there. Ward: You turn there right at the cemetery? B.Schmitt: The cemetery is actually wedged in between Miles View here on the east and Timber Glen that new asphalt road on the west. Ward: Who asphalted Timber Glen? B.Schmitt: We did. • Page 66 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 67 Bunch: N.Schmitt: Bunch: N.Schmitt: B.Schmitt: Bunch: B.Schmitt: Bunch: • B.Schmitt: Conklin: • N.Schmitt: Conklin: Ward: Petrie: Ward: Petrie: Ward: Where's the old pauper cemetery? I don't know where it is. The reason I asked that is that somewhere behind, one of the people who grew up right across the street from this told me that there is a pauper cemetery into the macular of the local area over behind, which means across 45 and to the south of the Sun's Chapel Cemetery and possibly I think it may be right in here. We have been all over this property and seen no sign whatsoever of any burial. We brush hogged it all with the exception of that. It might be just the lower corner of the Son's Chapel. It may be the lower corner of the Kinsey property. Or the Son's Chapel Cemetery. It may be right in here. They are also dedicating the 110 feet for our future bypass out there. I don't know if it's going to be built there. We are talking about a freeway. That would be as expensive as a hopper tunnel to go over the road. But it's on our Master Street Plan. It typically says 200-300 feet for a freeway. We are using a principal arterial. We have done that in the past. They are in agreement. Ron, did you have something to say about this? No. Okay, you are just sitting there enjoying yourself? Pretty much. Open to the public. No public comments so I will close to the public and I'll Page 67 Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 68 bring it back to Committee. MOTION: Hoover: I'll make a motion that we approve LS 00-26.00. Bunch: Hang on dust a second. I have a couple of questions before we do anything. On these County private roads, when you say is it a right-of-way or is it an easement? There is so many of them... Conklin: I want a right-of-way. Bunch: So many of them are supposedly public access roads, privately maintained because they were built below County Standards. Conklin: Yes. Bunch: I'm looking at this one, I can see the rationale behind not trying to require full fledged subdivision streets in a rural setting. To whom is the right-of-way dedicated and is it a right-of-way? Conklin: I'm trying to get right-of-way. I can tell you, talking with the County Planner, I'm not sure if the County knows what these private streets or rights-of-way are and who can use them. It's not clear. I want it clear that this is for public use and that if someone else subdivides and they have twenty houses out here, they could come through here. It's not just a private drive. Unfortunately we have some other things the County has approved in the past few years that we just have to live with. Bunch: It looks like the Greenhaw one down here has a County sign on it, County road number sign but it also says "No trespassing". Ward: Anyone can put "No trespassing" but who's going to take it off? Bunch: One of the things that I'm thinking about is the safety of the residents several years on down the line. I'm thinking of the situation we had in the Winslow area where there was no access or limited access and the kids bumed up in the camper shell because emergency vehicles couldn't get to them. Page 68 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 69 Conklin: One of the Quorum Court members right now has a ordinance for consideration I think next Thursday, to not allow cities to impose any street standards. I have given the County Planner the state fire code that talks about minimum twenty foot wide drive for access which we only have ten feet right there too. Once again, I'm doing more than what I've seen done in the past five years. This is as far as I've gone at this point. It needs to be clarified, Don. Bunch: Who will maintain this road. It says on here it's right-of-way. Say there is a future connection down here somewhere, is there a property owner's association that would maintain this? Who maintains this? B.Schmitt: Actually there is. There's a POA. This connects right here, this is Robinwood Subdivision. There are five lots. That's a lot split that we approved about a year ago and the City, at that time, took a forty foot wide easement. I don't know if it's an easement or a dedication, it's definitely they reserve the right for future development across the first forty feet of that property. Those people have a mutual access agreement, that they all signed, across it and they create their own POA to take care of that is what they have done. We have just extended the covenants that we wrote for these five lots here to encompass these four lots here and so these people will all maintain these too. Bunch: That was my next question, if this is incorporated into the agreement... You wind up with a situation. Say the road washes out right across here. All these people up here, if they are the POA they say "Hey, the road is still good at our house. Why should we vote to dip into our pockets? You guys down here are out of luck." N.Schmitt: The man who owns the end lot, is an attorney. He drew up the POA agreements. He made sure it would definitely cover it. Bunch: Since we would be approving the lot split at this level, that was one of my concerns. The furthest lot down the line wouldn't get the shaft and that they are members of the property owners association. Conklin: That's my whole point. I would love to see these built to County Standards and the County maintain them. The County is accepting what they call these private drives and they put a sign up that says "Private drive, will not be maintained by the County." That's my point. Now we have this person, you have these thirty- three more acres down here, they develop and they start driving over this POA • Page 69 • • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 70 B.Schmitt: maintained road and tear it all up, I guess you have to settle that in court. I'm trying to avoid that. When I was looking... I actually, at one point, tried to develop that for about twelve months and when we were going to do that you were going to require me to improve that road as a full City street all the way back. N.Schmitt: If you would do that in the future, that would take care of that. B.Schmitt: Yes. If you would maintain the same requirements you were going to have for me then, that would not be a problem because they would have to build a twenty-four foot wide street all the way back. Conklin: I'm moving in that direction as you know Bob. B.Schmitt: Yes. Bunch: Right now it's a beautiful country lane and save the trees. I kind of wanders around, it's paved. B.Schmitt: That's what we tried to do. Conklin: It's nice. Bunch: The same thing over here, these two lots, lots three and four have connectivity to this and that they are not separated from the property owner's association. So if this part washes, these folks up here say "Hey, we have to have access to our house. To heck with you." I've seen too many subdivisions where that's happened. You were the ones that did develop these others? B.Schmitt: Yes. Just to the west of that. Just this one up here. Bunch: Okay. It's all under the same property owner's association? B.Schmitt: Yes. Bunch: I'm comfortable with that. I'll second it. Ward: I'll concur. • Page 70 • Subdivision Committee August 31, 2000 Page 71 Conklin: Just for the record, all the water lines will have to be detailed construction drawings approved, built and accepted prior to any deed being stamped and filed. • Page 71