HomeMy WebLinkAbout1997-09-22 Minutes•
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MINUTES OF A MEETING OF THE
PLANNING COMMISSION
A regular meeting of the Planning Commission was held September 22, 1997 at 5:30 p.m. in
Room 219 of the City Administration Building, 113 W. Mountain Street, Fayetteville, Arkansas.
MEMBERS PRESENT:
Conrad Odom, Phyllis Johnson, Lee Ward, John
Watkins, Gary Tucker, Lorel Hoffman, Bob
Reynolds, John Forney, and Mark Sugg.
STAFF PRESENT: Alett Little, Jim Beavers, Tim Conklin, Dawn
Warrick, and Heather Woodruff.
ITEMS REVIEWED:
1. VA 97-5.00: The Ozark Building
2. VA 97-6.00: Ray Adams Trust
3. PP 97-7.00: Serenity Place PUD
4. AD 97-11.00:Commercial Design Standards
APPROVAL OF THE MINUTES
The minutes were approved as distributed.
VA 97-5.00: VACATION (THE OZARK BUILDING)
OZARK BUILDING. L.L.C.- 2 NORTH COLLEGE
ACTION TAKEN
Approved/fwd City Council
Approved/fwd City Council
Approved/fwd Tech plat rvw
No action taken
The Street right-of-way vacation request for the Ozark Building was presented by Richard
Alexander on behalf of the Ozark Building L.L.C.
The staff report from Mr. Beavers is as follows:
The request is to vacate and close to the public that portion of street right-of-way for Center
Street south of North College. The requested vacation is for a 17 ft. by 95 ft. section then
expanding to a 22 ft. by 100 ft. section of Center Street on the north side of the street and
adjacent to the Ozark Building (approximately 3815 square feet). Please refer to the attached
survey and legal description.
If approved, the vacation will narrow the existing 49.42 ft street right-of-way to 32.42 and 27.42
adjacent to the old Washington County Courthouse.
• Based upon a site plan prepared by the architectural firm of Foster-Wistell Evans and Rasco, the
proposed space would be used to create a patio and steps south of the Ozark Building and
aqb
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
Page 2
additional parking east of the Ozark Building.
The proposal would result in the loss of approximately 12 or 13 public parking spaces.
The proposed right-of-way vacation will also affect an existing sanitary sewer line (refer to
survey). Staff requests that the vacated right-of-way be preserved as utility easement to allow
maintenance of this line. Further, the proposed steps, landing, walk and tree plantings will not be
allowed in the utility easement.
The applicant has submitted the required notification forms to the utility companies and the City.
The results are as follows:
SWEPCO - no objections.
Arkansas Western Gas - no objections.
SW Bell - no objections.
TCA Cable - no objections.
City Water/Sewer - Sanitary sewer line exists in the proposed vacation. Water exists on the
south side of Center Street. The water/sewer superintendent requests that any vacated right-of-
way be replaced with a utility easement, a minimum of 10 feet each side of the line and that no
vertical construction of any kind, nor any trees of any kind be allowed in this easement.
Street Department - did not agree. Noted concerns for the transformation of public parking to
private parking and the need for additional right-of-way at County Avenue/Center and
College/Center.
Solid Waste - no objections.
Recommendation: Due to the existing sanitary sewer line and conflicts with the proposed
plan, staff requests that the Planning Commission recommend to the City Council that the right-
of-way vacation not be allowed. However, if the Planning Commission chooses to recommend
approval of the application, staff requests the following conditions of approval:
Conditions of Approval:
1. That any vacated right-of-way be replaced with a utility easement, a minimum of 10 feet
each side of the sanitary sewer line and that no vertical construction of any kind (stairs,
landings, fill, walls ....) nor any tress be allowed within this easement.
Resolution of the loss of public parking.
• 3. That the applicant agree to construct any parking, street and drainage improvements
necessary to bring street and drainage in, and adjacent to, the requested vacation to City
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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standards.
4. Retain sufficient right-of-way for improved intersections at College/Center and County
Avenue/Center.
End of staff report.
Mr. Richard Alexander and Mr. Jim Foster represented the item.
Mr. Alexander stated when he purchased the building from the city he had agreed to restore it.
However, when the property was purchased a survey was not provided. After a survey had been
conducted it was discovered part of the building was located in the setback and part of a street
cut across the corner of the property. The street vacation would allow the parking area to be
renovated for a safer, more attractive corner with better circulation for both pedestrians and
vehicles. The perspective tenant was concerned about parking. Mr. Alexander noted two public
parking areas close by that were not fully utilize. The County, adjacent neighbor, had no
objections to the vacation. He added the sewer line would be located in the parking area with
low growing shrubs. He stated no vertical structures would be built in the easement area. He
would also dedicate a 20' easement for the sewer.
Mr Beavers stated it was possible to relocate the sewer line, if Mr. Alexander wanted to build in
the area and pay for the relocation.
There was no public comment.
Mr. Watkins questioned the loss of public parking, referring to condition #2.
Mr. Alexander stated there were approximately 10 public parking spaces there now, which would
be replaced with 10 private parking spaces. He added the prospective tenant needed parking to
make the building feasible for Ozark Building, L L C to lease. He noted the nearby public
parking was under utilize.
Mr. Tucker questioned the width of the street after the vacation.
Mr. Foster replied the street would be 32' wide at the western portion of Center street and 24' at
the eastern section of the street.
In response to questions from Mr. Reynolds, Ms Little replied that under the parking standards
adopted recently to be supportive of downtown redevelopment, no additional parking would be
required because the applicant was not adding additional square footage to the building. If the
square footage were to increase, then parking would be required. The need for the parking was
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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driven by the applicant's client; without the client the applicant feels it is not feasible to renovate
the building.
Mr. Reynolds felt the renovation would benefit the downtown area.
Mr. Sugg questioned how the building would be used and who would be using the parking lot.
Mr. Alexander replied the building would be used as office space. He did not believe the use
would generate a lot of traffic.
Mr. Sugg expressed concern about losing public parking.
Mr. Alexander stated his client could locate in another area outside of town, if he could not
provide the needed parking. He noted the city would be losing part of a street, but the city would
be gaining another business downtown which would generate more tax revenue.
In response to questions from Ms. Little, Mr. Alexander stated there was a signed contract
pending on the parking issues.
Ms. Johnson expressed concern about the limited number of streets going east. She felt Center
Street could be a significant street in the future. She expressed concern about the loss of public
parking and the width of the vacated street.
Mr. Watkins stated he was not concerned about the loss of public parking, because there were
other public parking lots in the area The applicant would be providing private off-street parking.
He did not believe the street narrowing would be a concern because the renovation would
increase safety by removing the existing unsafe parking along the street.
Ms. Hoffman, in reference to another project, asked if there should be any compensation for the
loss of public parking spaces.
Mr. Odom replied the other project was different because they were vacating parking spaces.
This applicant would be adding private parking.
Ms Little added the other project was also adding square footage to an existing building. This
project would not be adding additional square footage. Parking was not a city requirement in this
zoning district if square feet are not added.
Mr. Forney commented this project would reduce the radius of the curve to the southwest of the
project which would make it easier to cross Center street on foot. He asked the width of Center
Street west of College.
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Planning Commission Meeting
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Ms. Little replied the width of Center Street was 55' west of College and the current right-of-way
east of College was also 55'.
Mr. Alexander stated currently, there was no need for public parking because the Courthouse
building was empty. He noted the area was depressed but, with the redevelopment, the area
would become viable again. Without efforts to attract new businesses the area would stay
abandoned. There would be abundant public parking but, without businesses there would be no
need for the parking. He felt the city would be pleased with the renovation and the activity and
life the renovation would bring to the area.
Mr. Odom stated he was usually opposed to losing public parking, however, this area was
depressed and could be revived by giving some enticements to renovate. He was in favor of
allowing the public parking to become private.
MOTION
Mr. Reynolds moved to recommend to the City Council approval of the vacation with a 10'
easement on each side of the sewer line or relocation of the sewer line. He moved to waive the
public parking and that sufficient right-of-way (approved by staff) be retained for improvements
to intersections at College/Center and County Avenue/Center.
Mr. Ward seconded the motion.
The motion carried by a vote of 7-2-0. Johnson and Forney voting nay
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VA 97-6.00: VACATION (RAY ADAMS TRUST)
RAY ADAMS TRUST- E OF SCHOOL ST. & S. OF 6TH ST.
Staff report by Jim Beavers was presented:
The street and alley vacation request for the Ray Adams Trust was presented by Jerry Allred.
The requested vacation is for the portion of Eight Street located between School Avenue and
Locust Avenue and the alley bounded on the north by Eight Street and on the south by Ninth
Street (Block 7 of the Ferguson Addition, pp 562).
The platted Eighth street has not been developed into a City street and the alley is not used for
traffic. There are concerns with the existing drainage in the right-of-way of Eight Street.
Additionally there are two sanitary sewer lines in the Eighth Street right-of-way (see copy
attached).
The applicant has submitted the required notification forms to the utility companies and the City.
The results are as follows:
• SWEPCO - no objections.
Arkansas Western Gas - not clear (form signed but not completed).
SW Bell - no objections.
TCA Cable - no objections.
City Water/Sewer - has not yet responded. There are two sanitary sewer lines in the existing
right-of-way. Therefore if the ROW is vacated then a utility easement the full width of the
existing right-of-way must be granted for the two existing sanitary sewer lines.
Street Department - Agreed that the right-of-way could be vacated if an acceptable plan is
presented to accommodate the drainage currently on the Eighth Street right-of-way.
Solid Waste - no objections.
Recommendation: Consideration of the application based upon staff findings. If the Planning
Commission chooses to recommend approval of the application, staff requests the following
conditions of approval:
Conditions of Approval:
1. The applicant must furnish a precise legal description. This will be required prior to an
agenda request to the City Council.
2. If the right-of-way is vacated then a utility easement the full width of the existing Eight
• Street right-of-way must be granted for the two existing sanitary sewer lines.
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Planning Commission Meeting
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3. The applicant must provide an plan acceptable to the Street and Engineering Divisions to
accommodate the drainage currently on the Eighth Street right-of-way.
End of Staff report.
Ms. Little stated that a letter had been received from Carolyn Jones expressing concern about
drainage problems and that each commissioner had a copy of the letter.
Mr. Jerry Allred represented the item.
Mr. Allred stated the applicant was requesting the vacation to help clean up the area for
redevelopment. He noted the property would have to go through the large scale development
process, when it developed. He did not believe a drainage study would be accurate until a
building was located on the site.
There was no public comment.
Mr. Odom asked if a drainage plan was normally required for a vacation.
Mr. Beavers replied it was not typical to require a drainage plan for a vacation. The street
superintendent had requested a plan to help the existing drainage problems.
In response to questions from Mr. Tucker, Mr. Allred stated his client did not have the funds to
conduct a drainage study. He argued the drainage would change when the land was developed.
He added the owner was willing to participate in a cost share program, but was not willing to do
all the improvements himself.
Mr. Watkins saw no reason to give up a street right-of-way. He felt this request was premature.
Mr. Odom asked if the city planned to construct Eighth Street.
Mr. Beavers stated currently, there were no plans to construct the street.
Mr. Allred stated the owner wanted to clean up the area to attract more businesses to the south
part of town. He could see no disadvantage to the city. He added there was not a public need
for the street.
Mr. Odom stated if the city allowed the vacation, the area would become more attractive for
development which would help the area improve the drainage problems.
In response to questions from Mr. Forney, Mr. Allred stated the both sides were owned by the
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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same person. The alley to the north had been vacated by different property owners. He thought
other portions of the street had been vacated.
Mr. Forney asked if the alley to the north of Eight Street and the alley to the south of Ninth Street
had been vacated.
Mr. Allred stated the northern portion of Eighth Street, the first two Tots, had been vacated.
Ms. Johnson asked if any portion of Eighth Street had been constructed.
Ms. Little did not believe any portion of Eighth Street had been constructed. She noted this was
the first time a developer had been interested in the property.
Ms. Johnson noted Ninth Street had been constructed in several locations.
Ms. Little noted the right-of-way for Ninth street was wider than Eighth Street and parts of Ninth
Street had been constructed.
• Mr. Tucker stated he had no problem with vacation of right-of-way, but he was concerned about
the drainage. He asked what the staff was expecting to see for a drainage study.
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Mr. Beavers felt the study would probably consist of a plan to clean the area up. A complaint
letter had referred to the lack of maintenance causing the drainage problem.
MOTION
Mr. Reynolds moved to approve the vacation with all staff comments. In reference to condition
#3, the applicant must provide a plan acceptable the city staff to accommodate the drainage
problem on the eighth street right-of-way.
Ms. Hoffman seconded the motion.
The motion carried by a vote of 8-1-0. Watkins voting nay
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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PP 97-7.00: PRELIMINARY PLAT (SERENITY PLACE P.U.D.)
PRESTIGE PROPERTIES- W. OF SALEM & N. OF MT. COMFORT
Staff report by Jim Beavers was presented:
The preliminary plat was submitted by Brian Moore of Engineering Services, Inc. on behalf of
Prestige Properties Inc., for property located west of Salem Road and north of Mount Comfort
Road. The property is zoned R-1, Low Density Residential and contains approximately 30.04
acres with 99 proposed single family lots.
Findings: This subdivision is proposed as a planned unit development. Improvements to Salem
Road to bring it into compliance with City standards (including a 6 ft. sidewalk) and an
assessment of $124,000.00 for contribution to the Master Street Plan minor arterial (Rupple
Road) on the western edge of this project will be required of this developer.
A Master Street Plan collector runs east / west through this development (Serenity Way).
The project was tabled at the August 28, 1997 Subdivision Committee Meeting due to Master
Street Plan issues. The plan as presented for the Planning Commission Meeting was reviewed at
the September 11, 1997 Subdivision Committee meeting. The revised plan, if approved by the
Planning Commission must go back to Technical Plat review in order for the utility companies to
request easements and crossings.
Recommendation: Consideration of this project based on staff findings. If the Planning
Commission chooses to approve this project, staff recommends the following conditions of
approval:
Conditions of Approval:
1. Planning Commission determination of the requirement for a second access to Salem
Road. The extension of Reflective drive to Salem Road is recommended by Staff.
2. Planning Commission determination of the request for a wavier in cul-de-sac length for
Peaceful Lane (permanent cul-de-sac) and for Serenity Way (cul-de-sac until future
arterial is built).
3. Determination of the developer's share for the construction of the Master Street Plan
• minor arterial on the west (Rupple Road) in accordance with the Subdivision Regulations
(section 159.33). Staff estimates the developer's contribution to be $124,000.00.
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Planning Commission Meeting
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4. Compliance with all requirements of the City's regulations for Planned Unit
Developments.
The layout as shown is subject to a Letter of Map Amendment from the developer's
engineer to FEMA. If the LOMA is not accepted, then all of the lots within the
floodplain must be a minimum of one acre. The preliminary plat must document this
requirement.
6. The City of Fayetteville expects to receive new information from the Corps of Engineers
in October or November concerning revised floodplain elevations. It is anticipated that
the new elevations will result in more lots being placed in the floodplain. The developer
is hereby notified that the final plat must reflect the latest information available to the
City.
7. The payment of Parks fees at the time of final plat in the amount of $29,700.00 (99 lots
at $300.00 per lot).
8. The payment of $6,014.00 as a water line connection fee ($200 per acre) as required by
• the Salem Road water line extension Ordinance (no. 3938) dated 11/7/95.
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9. Payment of $19,800.00 at the time of final plat for the improvements to the Hamestring
Basin sanitary sewer system ($200 per lot). This fee is consistent with development in
the Hamestring Creek basin.
10. Plat Review and Subdivision comments (to include written staff comments mailed to the
applicant or his representative, and all comments from utility representatives - AR
Western Gas, SWBT, Ozark, SWEPCO, TCA Cable)
11. All improvements shall comply with City's current requirements.
Staff approval of final detailed plans, specifications and calculations (where applicable)
for grading, drainage, water, sewer, fire protection, streets (public and private), sidewalks
and tree preservation. The information submitted for the plat review process was
reviewed for general concept only. All public improvements are subject to additional
review and approval. Fire protection to meet the Fire Chiefs requirements.
12. Sidewalk construction in accordance with current standards to include a minimum 6 ft.
sidewalk with a minimum 10 ft. greenspace along the west side of Salem Road and both
sides of Serenity Way. Sidewalk construction to include a minimum 4 ft. sidewalk with
a minimum 6 ft. greenspace along both sides of all other streets within the development.
The sidewalks shall be continuous through driveways.
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13. Right-of-way dedication per the Master Street Plan.
14. Widen Salem Road to match the existing widening immediately north (Salem Village
PUD).
15. The construction of Serenity Way as a collector per the Master Street Plan requires (by
precedent or tradition) that the City participate in the additional costs between a 28 ft.
residential street and a 36 ft. collector street.
Neither the Planning Commission or staff can obligate City funds. Therefore the
construction of Serenity Way as a collector is subject to the City Council approving a cost
share agreement with Prestige Properties Development Inc. If such agreement were to
fail, then the developer must construct Serenity Way as a 28 ft. residential street.
Therefore, the cost -share agreement must be presented to the City Council prior to
approval of the construction plans for the development. The developer's engineer shall be
responsible to furnish a complete and accurate cost estimate to the City for use in
preparing a Council agenda request.
• 16. Gravel shall not be allowed for any parking in public right-of-way. The proposed parking
along Serenity shall be paved to the same standards as the street construction. The
proposed island in Serenity Way is subject to additional review and consideration.
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17. Clearly define and pave all access points to the public and private parks and greenspace.
18. The covenants must be reviewed and approved by the City Planning, Engineering and
Legal Divisions/Departments. The covenants must provide for the maintenance of the
private areas, private drainage and all other "PUD" requirements. Further the covenants
must provide that fences will not be constructed along Serenity Way for the portion
adjacent to private park.
19. The City will maintain all streets and drainage within the street right-of-way only. All
other drainage shall be private and privately maintained by a POA or other such entity.
20. The preliminary plat will go back through the technical plat review process to allow the
utility companies to request easements and crossings.
• 21. Public access to the greenspace area not designated as private to be provided.
End of staff report.
Ms. Mickey Harrington represented the item. Mr. Tim Reynolds and Brian Moore were also
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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present.
Mr Beavers asked for clarification on condition #18, restricting the use of fences.
Ms. Little recalled the subdivision discussion had involved the public's view into the private
park. It had been her understanding that there were not to be fences along Serenity Way, which
would block the view into the park.
Mr. Forney added the private park was not to be fenced along the frontage adjacent to Serenity
Way. The Subdivision Committee had only been concerned with the private park being fenced.
Ms. Little stated condition #18 would read, "Fences would not be constructed along Serenity
Way for that portion adjacent to the private park." She added the Parks Board had requested that
all the greenspace, with the exception of the private park, be open to the public.
Ms. Harrington, attorney, stated two plats were being presented. One plat had been designed
with an extra tum lane at the main entrance of Salem Road. The second plat was basically the
same design, but with two streets connecting to Salem Road. She noted the Subdivision
Committee preferred the plat with two ingress/egress onto Salem Road. The developer preferred
the design with one entrance onto Salem. She explained the developer had incorporated a Master
Street Planned collector street through the subdivision. In an effort to increase safety, none of
the lots were facing the collector street. She explained the subdivision had originally been
designed with only two entrances, one on Salem and the second on the future Rupple Road
extension. However, the Subdivision Committee had recommended an additional entry onto
Salem Road to prevent the subdivision from only having one entry until the Rupple Road
extension could be complete. She felt the northern entry onto Salem would become more widely
used than the collector street because of the school which would reduce the safety of the
subdivision. She added the two entries on Salem would only be 200' apart. She felt one entry
with a turn lane would be more beneficial than the addition of a second entry. She felt Rupple
Road would be constructed soon after the subdivision was built out.
PUBLIC
Mr. Jim Kimbrough, 2420 N. Salem Road, expressed concern about the subdivision only having
one entry.
Ms. Johnson asked the time frame for the construction of Rupple Road.
Ms. Little stated the staff had requested the Rupple Road extension be placed on the staff
requested items for 1998. However, there would be many items on the listed that would not
receive funding.
Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
Page 13
Ms. Johnson expressed concern that this subdivision would have only one entrance for to long.
Mr. Watkins noted the difficulty in getting from one point to another in Fayetteville. He felt the
second access point would be advantageous to the people on Reflective Way. He added
subdivisions needed multiple accesses.
Ms. Johnson asked the length of the cul-de-sacs on Secluded Lane and Peaceful Lane.
Ms. Little replied until there was another access point, the length of the cul-de-sac would be the
total length of the street from Salem Road, Serenity and Peaceful.
Mr. Beavers added the cul-de-sac length would be over 500'.
Ms. Harrington questioned the type of access required for condition #21.
Mr. Tim Reynolds stated the type of access to the green space had never been discussed.
Mr. Beavers stated the access point needed to be paved to avoid future problems. He added the
• people buying the homes needed to know it was a public access.
Ms. Johnson questioned the apron parking on the sides of the collector street near the private
park area
Ms. Harrington replied the parking would be for the neighborhood residents.
Mr. Brian Moore noted the developer was paying the full amount in parks fees in addition to
allowing public access to the green space.
Mr. Bob Reynolds expressed concern about children crossing the collector to get from one park
to the next.
Ms. Harrington responded a green median had been added to the collector to help address the
problem of crossing the street. She noted each park was approximately the size of a football
field. She did not believe there would be a lot of crossing between the two. She noted each side
would have different activities.
Mr. Bob Reynolds suggested a tunnel or overhead crossing.
Ms. Harrington replied the tunnel would be too expensive. She suggested making the median
• wider and to angle the collector street to slow traffic down.
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
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Ms. Johnson expressed concern about slowing traffic down on a major collector.
Mr. Beavers stated tum lanes were required on all collector streets by definition, without regard
to the number of entrances to the subdivision.
Mr. Forney questioned if the second entry off Salem could be closed after the Rupple Road was
constructed.
Ms. Little replied she was not aware of another subdivision where an access had been closed.
She added Crystal Springs and Salem Village were required to have four accesses. This
subdivision was only being asked to provide three accesses.
In response to questions from Ms. Johnson, Ms. Little stated the design speed for a collector
street was 35 to 40 miles per hour.
Mr. Watkins liked the idea of the median to slow traffic to increase the safety through the park
area
• In response to questions from Mr. Sugg regarding the wide corners, Ms Harrington stated the
comers would allow more room for the emergency vehicles to maneuver.
MOTION
Mr. Forney moved to approve the plat with the second access onto Salem Road and the request
for the waivers from cul-de-sac length to be granted for Peaceful Lane and Serenity Way. The
developer's contribution to Rupple Road would be $124,000.00. He noted the amendment to
condition 18, "fences will not be constructed along Serenity Way for that portion adjacent to the
private park. He added condition #21- Public access to greenspace area not designated as private
will be provided.
Mr. Tucker seconded the motion.
Ms. Hoffman asked if the motion included the widening of the median between the two parks.
Mr. Forney replied his motion did not include the widening of the median. It accepted the 10'
median as it was shown on the plat.
Mr. Odom asked the staff to address the width of the median at the Technical plat review.
• Ms. Hoffman did not believe she could support the motion without the median being widen to
increase the safety between the two parks.
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Planning Commission Meeting
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Mr. Forney stated he did not object to the median being widened, but he could not support it
because he did not know which would be the safest design.
In response to comments from Ms. Harrington, Ms. Hoffman reiterated that the developer needed
to work with the staff on the median.
The motion carried by a vote of 8-1-0. Mr. Sugg voting nay.
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Planning Commission Meeting
September 22, 1997
Page 16
AD 97-11.00 ADMINISTRATIVE ITEM (DISCUSSION OF COMMERCIAL DESIGN
STANDARDS1
Mr. Odom stated the discussion would involve the word articulation in the context of the
Commercial Design Standards.
Ms. Johnson stated she like the definition of articulation the staff had provided.
Mr. Watkins stated he also liked the definitions and illustrations the staff had provided. He felt
the Planning Commission needed to adopt the definition and illustrations either informally or by
regulation.
Mr. Odom commented the original ordinances for the Commercial Design Standard ordinance
contained illustrations. However, the City Council had deleted those illustrations.
Mr. Watkins felt if the Council did not accept the drawings, then the Planning Commission could
adopt definition and illustrations to help in the application of the regulation. The Commission
could give meaning to the term unarticulated and the articulated. He recommended the
definition and illustrations be adopted by the Planning Commission as one of their regulations or
by the staff, which would not require council approval.
Ms. Hoffman suggested adding handouts with the applications explaining the terms with
illustration.
The meeting adjourned at 7:40 p.m.
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