HomeMy WebLinkAbout1995-03-13 - Minutes•
•
•
ADULT SOFTBALL PUBLIC MEETING
MARCH 13, 1995
Members Present: Driver, James, Knight, Mackey, Stone, Waite
Staff Present: Clark, Cox, Dugwyler
Guests Present: See attached list
The meeting was called to order at 5:05 pm in room 326 of the City
Administration Building.
BUSINESS:
Driver: We are here to discuss adult softball. I would like to
hear everyone's opinions without comment from conflicting opinions.
Dale will give us a little background of the issues at hand.
Clark: This is not new. This issue has come up before. After
leaving ASA, we considered going independent. We ended up going
USSSA. As parks staff, we feel we can do a good job being
independent. The number of sanctioned teams has gone down since
going USSSA. The teams from 1994 represent 1,435 individuals.
There are only 40 or 50 here tonight. Some stats on softball:
Referees and scorekeepers are $39,168 dollars; Sanction fees
$1,895; Ballfield Maintenance Expenses from the City -labor
$56,000, equipment, etc. Summer and fall entry fees are $60,401.
The big question is insurance. Umpires are covered by tort
immunity unless wanton and willful negligence is portrayed. This
law has been around for many years. Shelter insurance quoted 50
umpires up to $5,000, $150 total premium. The softball advisory
board is made up of 6 umpires, 4 coaches, 2 coach/players. Thirty
of the Fayetteville teams affiliated with ASA also last year.
Softball divisions are how the teams are divided up. Our goal is
to offer adult softball. We have been accused of not caring.
Driver: Why is going independent your recommendation?
Clark: There are 40 to 50 teams who do not care about tournaments,
they just want to play here. We don't feel we need to sanction
just the teams that want competitive play. It is an injustice to
double sanction. You have added expenses and they won't play
anymore than they would have. If they want to sanction they are
permitted to do so but apply directly. We did not take this
lightly.
PUBLIC COMMENT:
Billy Austin: I am the State Umpire in Chief for USSSA and a
softball advisory board member. As far as insurance is concerned,
we need a secondary coverage with $50,000 for sanctioned umpires
calling a sanctioned game. I feel we provide a good program for
Fayetteville, and provide teams with a good game, I have a letter
from the City commenting on the good job from October 1993 on
girl's youth world tournaments. We have had the youth NIT here for
the past few years. We like to have tournaments in towns that are
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 2
associated with our association. We register girl's free of charge
with the adult sanctioning. It is $6 for each youth team to be
sanctioned, and that is waived. We don't charge this when men and
women are registered with us as a league. There are 35 girl's
teams.
Paula Belt: I work for the Hilton and they appreciate USSSA. They
provided discount rates and this keeps the teams together
especially with the NIT. It provides one safe area. I have been
involved with softball for 12 years. I have been ASA and USSSA
umpire. USSSA is far better. Teams can qualify and travel if they
choose. After talking to people, they are excited with USSSA. I
have heard a lot of good feed back from my boss who served on the
A & P Commission. USSSA provides lots of people and good
tournaments.
Waite: How does league sanctioning couple with tournaments?
Clark: It does not necessarily. You could still have sanctioned
tournaments.
Donner: The sanctioning body has to approve the tournament.
Mackey: Is playing in these tournaments a result of conference
play or is it just an invitational for anyone to play?
Austin: In the Fayetteville league teams qualify for state based
on standing in the league. We don't have district tournaments. We
have qualifiers during the year. You may qualify before the season
• or you can qualify within the league.
Jimmy Luper: I am the Area 7 Umpire in Chief for USSSA, and I work
for FYC as assigner of umpires. I have been associated with the
league for over 20 years. My father has been associated for 30
years. I have a petition from 30 umpires asking that we sanction
under USSSA. When I travel to other areas, people ask me how our
league is. We only had two ejections last year which is low. Ft.
Smith would love to have that on one night. People know in
Fayetteville they can't participate if they show up drunk, etc.
I don't like umpires with a bad attitude. I worked for ASA 16
years and USSSA last 4 years. They take care of their people.
They send umpires out of state to ump and help pay. This makes a
better umpire. With ASA I got to travel one time. At the
tournament two years ago, there were 30 teams from out of state and
12 umps from out of state. I would like to see it sanctioned. FPD
wants to sanction. They don't want to play in a recreation league.
Sue Red Nesbitt: I am on the softball board. I have had a women's
teams for 17 years in Fayetteville. This whole episode has really
disheartened me. My team has talked of going to Springdale. I was
told parents were scared to take their children to Lake
Fayetteville and that's why they did not want to put youth fields
there? People take their kids to Lokomotion all the time. We need
to get Dale Clark, Board members, and USSSA officials together
before we lose money and teams to springdale.
Stephen Haile: I am also a member of the board, coach, have
played, sponsored a women's team for five years, and volunteered to
• FYC. I umpired last year and have kept score for years. I have
many opportunities to work with many people who want to play ball.
The girl's want to play but the spirit is not there. Usssa rules
SOFTBALL PAGE 3
make it a more easier game to apply. USSSA make the league very
productive. The question I get from people that want to start
playing is "who are we associated with?" We have seven teams
registered and the deadline is Friday. The others are waiting on
a decision. I will play in Fayetteville if things work out.' I
want to see Fayetteville stay with USSSA. My ladies want to play
ball. We do double sanction.
Mackey: I had always viewed this league to be recreational and it
is competitive. What ages is this?
Haile: 16 and up. No maximum.
Mackey: How do you differentiate between the teams. How is this
decided?
Haile: Mark Paul and the board go on past experience of the teams.
Mackey: How do I know what I play when I go to Lake Fayetteville?
Haile: Softball is growing as a competitive sport.
Waite: You double sanction. If it were an open league, you can
still double sanction. What is the problem?
Haile: It is hard to find organized sanctioned softball for women.
Mackey: I want to know about the Fayetteville Softball
Association. How do you get on the board? Is anyone paid? I know
Luper gets paid to assign umpires. Does the board meet now.
Haile: They meet as called.
Donner: There is an adult and youth softball board. You are called
to serve as volunteers and if you want to step down someone else is
appointed.
Austin: We as an adult softball board are at Lake Fayetteville
about 7 days a week. We are not paid. We don't have any problems
with teams at Lake Fayetteville. We love softball because we were
born and raised on it.
Austin: Last year we discussed bylaws, home run rules, etc. USSSA
gives guidelines to go by, but the league has options. Our bylaws
are written. There is a list of rules posted on the concession if
there are any problems.
Mackey: I have lots of questions on tournaments on both pro
sanction and not sanction.
Donna Stowers: I am a softball player. Personally league play is
practice for me. We do sanction both ways because we like to play
a lot of tournaments. Why is it so important to be sanctioned in
the league? As long as it is organized and there are umpires, we
are happy. We just want to play ball. Fayetteville has some of
the nicest fields we have played on. If Fayetteville does not
sanction does that mean USSSA cannot hold tournaments here?
Austin: We can have tournaments at Lake Fayetteville if the league
does not sanction.
Stowers: Dale was trying to make a point on non- competitive
teams. Why make the people pay for the sanction fees that don't
want to be competitive and play tournaments?
Officer Brown: I am a player, coach, and umpire. Half of my
players will not play in Fayetteville if not sanctioned. If we are
not sanctioned does that mean we cannot go out of town to ump?
Luper: No, umpires will still be sanctioned.
Mackey: How much does it cost you to play in the league?
•
•
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 4
Brown: Nothing we have a sponsor.
Staggs: We just had a team meeting. We like playing in
Fayetteville but most of my guys will go to Springdale if not
sanctioned. They are afraid it won't be organized. What rules,
etc. I prefer USSSA rules. Sanction fees is not a big deal. Most
teams have sponsors. If they don't, it is only about $1.75 per
player to sanction. We all do it for fun, but no one wants to
lose. We buy our shirts and hats for about $20. Sponsor pays
entry fee.
Jim Graham: I am an umpire and player. I am here to get
information. We can't hold the softball program in a little cube.
We are growing. We need a governing body just to solidify the
rules. I want to play USSSA ball but not at the expense of the
league. The price is negligible. It is really cheap
entertainment. We need to keep it maintained. All the people from
the boards should get together and discuss how we will grow.
Waite: People can sanction on their own.
Graham: We have not heard the pros and cons of sanctioning. I
will umpire whether independent or not. If I can't have both, I
won't quit.
Mackey: My asking how much it cost each team is significant to
taxpayer about money spent out of pocket. The taxpayers would be
outraged if they knew how much the adult was being subsidized. The
youth programs are making it on their own.
Graham: The program might take a setback but it will continue to
grow. We need to get together and decide what to do. Lots of
people come to town when a big tournament is held and they will
spend money. Those numbers did not jive. We are losing money.
Mackey: In baseball, if we don't stay in the black we make it up.
We don't ask the city to bail us out.
Graham: You know the privately owned softball complexes aren't
operating in the red so there is no reason we should.
Driver: Did the upper ability teams play in these facilities?
Graham: Absolutely not. They have E and D teams. Some things are
pricey. There are eight fields, paramedic on site, 3 concessions,
sports shop. They were operating a business. There is no reason
for us to leave and go to Springdale.
Dick: I am from Springdale. I have been planning to play my
girl's team here due to your league. You have a wonderful facility
16 and under. We want to play here for the competition. I want to
know if we will have adequate umpiring. I don't see how that would
be totally possible without sanctioning. We register both and play
50 to 60 games.
Matt Reed: I am an umpire. Why are we fixing what is not broken?
We have been constantly improving under USSSA. This has never come
before the PRAB before. Only staff has decided this. I don't
think this should have come this far. I believe this was one
person's decision because of a problem with one person. There was
no input from coaches, etc. Leave softball alone, let us play. We
probably have the best umpires in the state. We have been told
that. We could argue the pros and cons of USSSA or ASA all day
long.
•
•
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 5
Waite: Who does this softball association belong to? Why has it
gotten so good.
Mackey: Who is in charge?
Waite: No one is being prevented from sanctioning.
Driver: I think it is okay to bring up the issue of personality.
That is not the main issue here. We are here to decide the best
thing for softball in Fayetteville. The reasons why it occurred
may be true but we need to move forward and decide. So you prefer
USSSA?
Reed: Yes, I feel this decision needs to be made with the softball
board.
Andrew Gaston: I have played for 3 years. We are a lower team.
We are a bunch of guys out of high school. Softball is our way of
staying together. We played two years in west, and now we are in
east. We are not blessed with a sponsor. So must of it comes out
of our pocket. We are from Springdale and what attracts us is
USSSA. The mechanics are better. If the league is sanctioned we
only have to play one tournament. If not we have to play two. We
don't have alot of money to travel. We have work insurance only.
James: If not sanctioned, you have to travel to two tournaments to
qualify? Do you have to finish 1st or 2nd or just because your in
a sanctioned league?
Austin: If you are sanctioned, the top 2 or 3 teams automatically
qualify for state tournament. But even the ninth team out of nine,
only has to play one tournament to qualify if in a sanctioned
league.
Robert Gibson: I am a player, umpire, and recently appointed to
the softball board. One benefit of USSSA is availability of state
umpire, etc. If there is a problem it is easily rectified. You
don't have to call Little Rock like in ASA. I have worked for FYC
and ballfield maintenance for parks. There has been tremendous
improvement in quality. I believe this is due to USSSA. It is
more organized, etc. There is not a figure head without USSSA.
The umpire is a representative of USSSA. Sometimes rules change
without sanctioning. Qualifications for ASA to get to state
tournament is one tournament. We should not be here tonight. This
has been blown out of proportion. USSSA has done more to help the
league than in years past.
Mackey: Are there tournament fees and who pays?
Gibson: It varies from team to team. It could be anywhere from
$80 to $150. Money goes to scorekeeper, umps, etc.
Mackey: How many tournaments did we have last year? Where do the
tournament fees go? It is not shown on this sheet.
Gibson: The city will benefit more from having sanctioned league
sponsored tournaments.
Mackey: A purpose of tournaments is to make money. I don't have
an answer to where this money goes.
Waite: I am concerned on rules. You take guidelines on USSSA and
fine tune the rules to fit your league now. It is really not a
function of the sanctioning body but the league. This is how the
guidelines would work if not sanctioned.
•
•
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 6
Gibson: There are not any set standard guidelines without a
sanctioned league. With a sanctioned league, you have a rulebook
to go by.
Waite: That does not seem to be an assessment to me. Any leagues
I played in made a rulebook whether sanctioned or not. I thought
the umpires were paid by the city. I thought they are representing
the city not USSSA. They may be certified by USSSA but they should
be representing city parks.
Gibson: Yes, but they also represent the players and USSSA. With
USSSA, they come in and hold a clinic. Who does this when not
sanctioned? I think the benefits far outweigh.
Luper: We rent the fields from the FYC and we make the money. We
pay umpires and scorekeepers.
Mackey: I am getting at the deficit.
Rick Stocker: I am the ASA District Commissioner. Negative things
have been said. If our umps want to leave to travel to other
tournaments, I want them here for our tournaments. Slow pitch is
not becoming collegiate. That is fast pitch softball. I had a
working affiliation with Dale. We will continue to extend our
services to Fayetteville. We feel we are not an inferior
organization.
Driver: Why do people prefer the rules of USSSA over ASA?
Stocker: There are some advantages. The one and one rule is good.
USSSA is more appealing to competitive league. You can see your
church and lower leagues have dropped off.
Leroy Oxford: I am a player and umpire. My team is moving to
Springdale. People are moving because we don't have regulation
fields. Taxpayers play on these fields, and we want a say. We
don't want the taxpayers money to pay for insurance.
The PRAB recessed for 5 minutes.
Driver: I appreciate your concerns. I will be more than happy to
hear any more comments.
Tonya Meyer: I am in the Women's north league, The reason women's
competitive teams come to Fayetteville is because the best teams
are here. Not because of USSSA, but USSSA makes the league more
competitive. If we are not sanctioned, half the teams will go to
Springdale and half in Fayetteville. It weakens our competition.
USSSA provides a way to play competitive softball.
James: We talked earlier about the NIT. Leanne and John have been
heavily involved. This is 4th year in a row. IF we are not
sanctioned what happens?
Donner: We would probably lose the NIT to another city that is
sanctioned. This is a premier tournament that you don't see
anywhere else. There is recreational and competitive in NIT. No
team is turned away. Every dollar is put back into the girl's
program. Gary Hampton came to the area and wanted to build a
program. ASA did not address girl's softball needs. USSSA did
and awarded us a national invitational tournament. We are putting
the tournament at risk. We had 72 teams turned away last year
because of lack of facilities. It would be sad to lose the
•
•
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 7
tournament.
Mackey: Are there tournament entry fees? Where does the profit
go?
Donner: We have not made a profit in the past four years. We only
charge $65. That is cheap for trophies etc. Any profit goes back
to league.
Offenbacker: I assign the youth league umpires. I started
umpiring in 1972. I do it because I love the sport. I have called
in non sanctioned and sanctioned leagues. We don't want to
overlook the little girl's. I will umpire either way. We need to
fix the situation. I do not want to see the little girl's program
suffer. NIT has classifications. The biggest money makers are
little girl's. Men usually go alone. Little girl's bring mom and
dad, brother, sister, friends, aunts and uncles, etc. There are a
lot of people in town and lots of money is spent. I will do
whatever is needed to keep Fayetteville going. I am concerned
with teams leaving and I don't want to hurt the little girl's
league. I don't want to lose the NIT. Adults pick their own
teams. Little girl's last year was totally at random. If out of
town teams picked their own player, they had to play in a higher
division. I enjoy umpiring USSSA rules. We can adopt these rules
without sanctioning.
Dugwyler: Regardless of the adult outcome, if the girl's sanction
at $6 will this affect the NIT?
Donner: This does not guarantee the NIT but, if you have a huge
sanctioning body it would be better.
Driver: Dale do you have any remarks or staff recommendations?
Clark: ASA director is in Little Rock, Rick Stocker is the local.
USSSA is in harrison. There are a number of people to train
umpires. Our proposal for going independent is we would put them
under the insurance of the city. They are not liable. We would
buy a premium health insurance for them. As for hotels, they all
wants teams to stay there. Most will give discounts. I think the
insurance is blown out of proportion. If someone is injured people
come to the city now anyway.
Mackey: Rick, does you organization call for medical insurance?
Stocker: They do supply insurance if you get hurt.
Mackey: How much would this cost for 1435 players.
Yarbrough: One million in liability is $186 per team for season to
cover practice, to and from games, and any other sanction they play
in. Youth would be $83 per team.
Driver: The decision to sanction should go back to the softball
advisory board and a decision made by Friday, March 17. The
softball advisory board should be restructured after this meeting.
I feel it falls under the duties of the PRAB to set the makeup of
the softball advisory board. I recommend future members of the
softball advisory board to have a non vested interest. USSSA has
offered for the softball board and Parks to have a good working
relationship with them. In order for us to sanction with USSSA, we
need a person with a good working relationship. I recommend a new
softball advisory board to work with PRAB to develop a cost
effective program. We might look at an increase in field rental.
•
•
•
. SOFTBALL PAGE 8
Mackey: I would like to see a split with 18 and under. Adult
seems more competitive while youth seems more instructional. I
think the two boards should be set up as Susan proposes. I would
like to see softball people running softball.' You should become
incorporated as a non-profit with no one on the board making money.
Knight: Your boards should govern softball both adult and youth.
The city runs the softball league. We need a board that can work
with the city. If you want to sanction that is fine just work with
us.
Waite: Tournaments will go through the board?
James: I think the softball board should be the governing body.
Has the board met every year and discussed to go back to USSSA. It
might need to be restructured. It is probably too late this year
but we can get a good running start next year. They can work
closely with us and we can only be called in to break a vote. We
all want to see this thing succeed.
Mackey: This board needs to meet this year and quickly to make a
fee per player.
Knight: I agree but I would like the board to be a more diverse
group. I hear a lot of umpires more than players.
Clark: The casualties are that it falls to me. I will happy to
meet with the board and work through what you have recommended.
Driver: Can we have a decision by Friday?
Clark: We can extend the deadline if needed.
Waite: I would like a recommendation from Dale and maybe the board
on what their proposed responsibilities will be.
Public meeting adjourned.
Clark: This has been a painful session. I feel I am in charge of
softball. I don't like them saying they are in charge. I write
the checks. It is kind of slipping away. I am unhappy with the
makeup of this board. They look at USSSA as their Union. They
forget who pays them. Insurance was a smokescreen. They fall back
on tort immunity. Very few adult teams buy insurance. People that
get hurt always go to the city first anyway.
Waite: I would like to see the Parks department take control of
softball. It disturbs me that we pay $40,000 a year for umpires
and they feel they are under USSSA.
Driver: I think you would be better off working with a
commissioner who has the city at heart.
Mackey: I don't want to see any of the money from tournaments goes
to a person instead of municipality.
Knight: Tell them we have to approve the board members of the
softball associations.
Clark: I have a problem with a non profit organization
le
•
•
GREEN SPACE
Salem Village
Owner/Developer:
Location:
Park District:
Units:
Land Dedication:
Money in Lieu:
Total acreage: 40 acres
Master Plan: No priority; neighborhood 12; 9
existing park acres; 1990 needs 7.5 to 15 acres; 2010
needs 18 to 36 acres.
Driver: We walked this property. It is across from the new
elementary school. Mr. Whitfield had some good points he wanted
brought up. This meets the spirit of the 2010 plan, village
concept. This development also meets the requirements of the new
green space ordinance. It is close to the park land for girl's
softball. What he wants to donate is part of the whole recreation
concept. He wants to retain for 13 acres along this strip to be
maintained by a POA. The dedication to parks is past the 13 acres.
This was once wetlands but has been used for pasture last 100
years. He would like to see it returned to its natural state. He
assured me that all the green space would be accessible to the
public.
Mackey: I thought he said the area where shelter and play area are
set up will be maintained by the POA.
Waite: Why do we need four odd acres when we have all that across
the street? There is 13 acres already there and the acres we get
will turn into wetland anyway. Who would it be serving?
Driver: It is almost a balance sheet. He said the school would
have access to this. He has made an effort to abide by the
ordinance as written. We would be hard pressed to uphold at City
Council.
Waite: if we view this as not an acceptable usage as a park it
would be alright.
Mackey: I would rather take the $35,000 and use it across the
street.
Clark: It is difficult because in this case you would have to vote
not to take land. I would hate for us to appear terribly greedy.
There is a provision we have not used whereby if POA maintained
land is open to the public that in essence satisfies our criteria.
We tried it at Park Place but they did not want to open it to the
public. People say I have taken enough drainage ways and
easements. I think the intent meets the law here.
Driver: It is possible a development could be on the west side and
kids could go along the creek to school.
Clark: It needs to be in the covenants that it is open to the
public.
Stone: He is just getting rid of it. It is not worth that much to
him. I think developers are figuring this out.
SOFTBALL PAGE 9
Bob Whitfield
W. of Salem, N. of Mt Comfort
Northwest
•
•
•
SOFTBALL PAGE 10
MOTION:WAITEJKNIGHT
The PRAB recommends to the Planning Commission to accept
approximately four acres contingent that the full green space of
approximately 13 acres is open for public usage and is stated in
the Property Owner's Association covenants.
MOTION APPROVED UNANIMOUSLY 6-0
The meeting adjourned at 8:30 pm.
Minutes Approved:
cretary
0
ILL(
7)1(77
e _ _ RayeY C_� UsS s o_o c 6
p
+s ✓
K. Kow�
Lc2o% i..Pow ✓
No
Kti
,vo
Z
caler_say_ A Au did
witiver
7
JQivk, i, S
CQ1y1ex $k&ce
zkM /4./
�,(.; o
ivb
110
t
Do y
TO_
sIT- A K ?_
